- From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:27:48 -0400 (EDT)
- To: Hy Cohen <hy@miplet.com>
- cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Hy wrote to me: I think you are misunderstanding something. Window-Eyes users will not get the title if there is a label. The label takes priority. Only if there is not a label will Window-Eyes read the title. And he was right - I had misunderstood. So I think you need to go with including the extra information in the label. sigh. (If there is a title on the label element does it get any better?) Also, is it really Window-Eyes' fault, or is it something in MSAA, or is it just an interaction between the two that is underspecified? Cheers Chaals On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Charles McCathieNevile wrote: > >well, it sounds like you have a few possibilities: > >1 You can remove the content of the label element (which is what that most > people will get) and put it in the title element (which screen-reader users > will get. > >This strikes me as an extremely bad idea. People with low vision whose >browser settings distort the layout will not be able to associate a label >with a control any more, except by guessing. It is also instructing people to >avoid doing things according to the agreed standard - generally a bad idea if >you rely on systems being designed to use content developed to a standard. > >2 You make the labels have more in them than you might otherwise, and not > have a title, so Window-Eyes users get what everyone else does. > >This seems workable in general, but not the most aesthetically pleasing >approach. > >3 You can use labels, with titles to carry more substantial information that > is to some extent redundant - Window-Eyes users will get that by default > >This seems like the best compromise to me. > >4 You can use labels, with titles only carrying supplemental information, > which means Window-eyes users only get the supplemental information until > they are able to read the content of labels in a new version. > >This would be fine if people were more fussy about not using software that >has bugs in it, but in the real world that still seems an impossible demand. >The software is getting better, but there is a way to go. (Not talking about >any product, just about all the software I have ever used). > >Cheers > >Chaals > >On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Hy Cohen wrote: > >> >>True, however, I know Window-Eyes, which is a fairly common screen >>reader, will not tell you the TITLE if there is a LABEL. It would be >>odd to put the instructions for the field in every LABEL. The TITLE is >>much more appropriate place, but to force Window-Eyes to read the TITLE >>I cannot use a LABEL. As long as the TITLE will work at meeting the WAI >>guidelines as a sub for LABEL, then that is fine. I'm just trying to >>meet WAI guidelines but still make the Window-Eyes read all the >>important info without having to switch MSAA mode on and off. As a >>screen reader user myself, I know how annoying that is. <smile> >> >>Warmly, >>Hy >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On >>Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile >>Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:22 AM >>To: Phill Jenkins >>Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org >>Subject: Re: LABEL Tag Question >> >> >> >>It is true that the title is something that might be a tooltip. The >>point is that title is extra information users might not get (or might >>not ask for). The label will be presented to everyone. So repeating >>information from the label in the title seems an odd thing to do - that >>should be additional, supplementary information. >> >>Chaals >> >>On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Phill Jenkins wrote: >> >>>>> title="Please enter the minimum required age for >>>>> this activity, or leave blank for no minimum age."> <label >>>> >>>>This is an abuse of title. title is *not* a tool-tip. It is >>>>grammatically a noun, not an imperative. >>> >>>Actually, the title attribute is rendered as a tool tip in most >>>graphical browsers, and more importantly, is described as such in the >>>HTML spec. >>> >>>See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title >>> >>><quote> >>>... offers advisory information about the element ... may annotate ... >>>Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a >>>variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the >>>title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears when the pointing >>>device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title >>>information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on >> >>>a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about >>>the nature of the linked >>>resource: >>><end quote> >>> >>>Regards, >>>Phill Jenkins, IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center >>> >>> >> >>-- >>Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles tel: +61 409 >>134 136 SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI >>http://www.w3.org/WAI 21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia >>fax(fr): +33 4 92 38 78 22 W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia >>Antipolis Cedex, France >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles tel: +61 409 134 136 SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI http://www.w3.org/WAI 21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia fax(fr): +33 4 92 38 78 22 W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
Received on Wednesday, 2 October 2002 15:27:48 UTC