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RE: New Window inform

From: John Foliot - bytown internet <foliot@bytowninternet.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:31:18 -0400
To: "Steve Vosloo" <stevenvosloo@yahoo.com>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <GKEFJJEKDDIMBHJOGLENMEGJCLAA.foliot@bytowninternet.com>


If you want the "conformance" tag to have any real "authority", then fudging
sections of it seems inappropriate to me.

	"All Animals are created equal, some are just more equal than others..."
(to paraphrase George Orwell).

W3C Priority 1, 6.3: "Ensure that pages are usable when scripts, applets, or
other programmatic objects are turned off or not supported. If this is not
possible, provide equivalent information on an alternative accessible page."
(Most often, the launching of a pop-up window invokes a JavaScript call
[which often opens a window with a fixed width and height].  If JavaScript
is not enabled, then what?  Yes, you can spawn a new window using the
target="_blank" attribute, but this introduces it's own issues as well,
including resource issues, spatial disorientation for those with cognitive
disabilities, etc.  How many new users, not aware that they have spawned a
new browser, become frustrated that their "Back" button isn't working?)

W3C Priority 2, 10.1: "Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned
windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change
the current window without informing the user." (Now it can be argued that
users *can* turn off pop-up windows [using applications like "pop-up-cop",
etc. or via their preferences settings - such as in Opera], but then the
content is not accessible...)

My feelings on this have been aired before - if you say it, means it!  Since
some user agents cannot handle pop-up windows, including them for ANY reason
introduces possible accessibility/usability problems.  Not knowing your
site, or your situation, I cannot say that your action cannot be acheived in
another way, but I can suggest you try.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of Steve Vosloo
> Sent: September 13, 2002 6:20 AM
> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: New Window inform
> In summary, some user agents that create a list of links for a page do
> not open those links in pop-up or new windows, so including the warning
> as part of the link would not be correct. Other user agents
> automatically inform the user of pop-up or new windows, so including the
> warning as part of the link would result in a double description, e.g.
> "Link: Microsoft, opens in a new window. Link opens a new browser
> window."
> Until a workable solution is found, it seems the best is to leave it up
> to the user agent to inform the user of a pop-up or new window.
> If we have good motivation for an action, as above, do you feel that one
> can still award Level-AA compliance even though this checkpoint has not
> been strictly adhered to?
> Steve
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd G. Rasmussen
> > Sent: 10 September 2002 09:14 PM
> > To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: New Window inform
> >
> >
> >
> > A Windows user can go into the Start, Settings, Control
> > Panel, Sounds applet and assign sounds  or earcons to the
> > "open program" and "close program" events.  Good sound
> > effects are in the Utopia and Robots sound schemes.  While
> > there, assign the "program error" sound from the Robots
> > scheme to program errors, and you have a crash which really
> > sounds like a crash.
> >
> > These earcons don't warn you that a new window is about to
> > open, but tell you when your actions or the actions of an
> > advertisement have opened another window.  The annoying thing
> > is that, in your effort to close various windows, you will
> > end up closing too many and end your browsing session prematurely.
> >
> > I would not put a warning inside a hyperlink.  Perhaps just after it.
> >
> > At 09:19 PM 9/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > >
> > >> Does anyone know which user agents don't warn the user about a new
> > >> window/popup?
> > >>
> > >
> > >There is only one user agent these days, as far as most people are
> > >concerned, and it doesn't.
> > >
> > >In practice, no mass market browser is going to warn people
> > by default
> > >as those authors not forced to obey Section 508 would not
> > stand for its
> > >getting in the way of their designs.
> > >
> > >
> > Braille is the solution to the digital divide.
> > Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
> > National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
> > Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
> > <http://www.loc.gov/nls>
> > HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>       <http://lras.home.sprynet.com>
> >
Received on Friday, 13 September 2002 08:31:37 UTC

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