- From: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
- Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:07:23 -0600
- To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
I grant that alt text on a "spacer image" is a hack, as is making links hidden by using same foreground and background colors. This may be offensive to purists but these hacks work. Using visibility:hidden or display:none to visibly hide text and expect it to be spoken by screen readers seems to be even worse than a hack. It is using an attribute for its opposite purpose. When HPR (in the previous version, 3.0) incorrectly (in my opinion) spoke content with these hidden attributes it was terribly confusing. For example, ALL of the pull down menus on sites like www.nsf.gov or www.microsoft.com are spoken, usually without the correct attributes of activity - i.e., they are not only supposed to be hidden, when visible they become active - when hidden they aren't. Other plus-to-expand type content was all in the HPR 3.0 text view; the "Plus" to expand and "minus" to collapse were meaningless. The first job of a screen reader or talking browser is to present, in as clear a way as possible, the content that is visually displayed on the page. When content is non-textual then the assistive technology needs some help, like alternative text for images, headers for the information conveyed by positions in data tables, or labels (or titles) to convey information otherwise given by positioning in forms. But the main job is to present the material that can be seen. Things with visibility:hidden or display:none can't be seen and are intended by the web designer to not be seen or heard. Jim jim@jimthatcher.com Accessibility Consulting http://jimthatcher.com 512-306-0931 -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Mike Scott Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 2:44 PM To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org; 'Phill Jenkins' Subject: RE: Fw: putting reader text in hidden <div> tags / adding pauses > Do you have a reference in the CSS spec that suggests that screen readers > read out loud content styled with Visibility: Hidden? The reference Charles indicated (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/propidx.html) is the one I had seen. > nor do I think screen readers should read anything marked hidden. "Skip Navigation" links are perfect examples of items that we might want hidden but definitely should be read by a screen reader. (Instead of the current workarounds like invisible images or text set to the same color as the background.) Also, there could be cases where dynamically hidden elements (such as pop-up or expanding/collapsing menus) also should be read. -----Original Message----- From: Charles McCathieNevile [mailto:charles@w3.org] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:44 AM To: Phill Jenkins Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org; RandR@SEC.GOV; Mike Scott Subject: Re: Fw: putting reader text in hidden <div> tags / adding pauses The display propperty is defined as referring to all presentation modes, whereas the visilbility property only aspplies to visual modes, according to the property index of CSS2 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/propidx.html cheers Charles On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Phill Jenkins wrote: Do you have a reference in the CSS spec that suggests that screen readers read out loud content styled with Visibility: Hidden? I couldn't find one nor do I think screen readers should read anything marked hidden. WCAG CSS techniques don't mention it, but it does discuss "display: none" at http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CSS-TECHS/#style-info-not-in-color-alone Display property in CSS 2 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-display Visibility property in CSS2 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visufx.html#visibility Why would a screen reader want to read out loud something that the author marked as hidden? Alt text on an invisible image is still the best choice because it is supported best. HPR 3.02 is currently available from ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/sns/hpr Regards, Phill Jenkins IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center 11501 Burnet Rd, Austin TX 78758 http://www.ibm.com/able Mike Scott <mscott@msfw.com>@w3.org on 12/02/2001 02:12:59 AM Sent by: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> cc: <RandR@SEC.GOV> Subject: Re: Fw: putting reader text in hidden <div> tags / adding pauses For what it's worth, the about-to-be-released IBM Home Page Reader version 3.02 will no longer read text with Display: None (or Visibility: Hidden). JAWS (at least as of 4.0.103) will read it if Display: None (or Visibility: Hidden) is set in the <style> block or in an external style sheet, but not if it is set in-line. According to the CSS specs, screen readers should NOT read content with Display: None but should read content with Visibility: Hidden. > > The original senders address was not available but I thought this a > worthy question to toss out. > > Hi, I'm a web developer for a federal agency website and a newcomer to > this list. We are experimenting with adding text for for screen readers > to our home page and index pages that is hidden from the visual > browser window with the following coding: > > <div style="display:none;">reader text goes here. . . .</div> > > I have verified that Netscape 4.7, Explorer 5, and Opera 5.12 won't > show the hidden text visually but that IBM Home Page Reader will > read the text. We haven't yet tested the coding with JAWS. > Is anyone else using this coding or can someone recommend another > approach? > > What prompted this experimentation was that in conversation with some > of our staff using screen readers, we discovered that our home page, > with 70+ links, is overwhelming. Visually the organization is clear, > but the screen reader simply reads all the links one after the other > without the benefit of identifying main link headings. We want to add > a more explanatory menu for screen readers with just the main links to > our important index pages, uncluttered by secondary links that they > would find on the second level index pages anyway. > > Second question is: has anyone had success with adding coding that > provides a pause for screen readers between lists of links? Is that > important? > > Thanks in advance for any help. > <snipped> > > Bob Rand, Web developer > Securities and Exchange Commission -- Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles phone: +61 409 134 136 W3C Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI fax: +1 617 258 5999 Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France)
Received on Monday, 3 December 2001 18:10:01 UTC