W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-hc@w3.org > October to December 1997

RE: SELECT/ OPTION GROUPS with the SIZE attribute

From: Scott Isaacs <scotti@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:06:44 -0800
Message-ID: <4175E9758584CF11927E00805F68ACFA03F6DEC5@RED-99-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
To: "'raman@Adobe.COM'" <raman@Adobe.COM>, "'w3c-html-wg@w3.org'" <w3c-html-wg@w3.org>
Cc: "'Dan Connolly'" <connolly@w3.org>, w3c-wai-hc@w3.org
I have no objections to most of the recommendations from the WAI group
(although I will continue to ask for clarifications so I can better
understand them). I will review and very closely critique any WAI
recommendation that proposes a change to a core intrinsic control (or
any HTML construct). The proposed enhancements to the list box are
clearly written to improve accessibility and also provide an enhanced
experience to all users. This is a great idea. However, as I expressed
in many mails in the past few days, the proposal is wholly inadequate in
meeting the needs of a true hierarchical list. Even if a hierarchical
list was not intended, the proposed structure essentially creates one.
Unfortunately, it is not simple for me to just propose enhancements or a
counter-proposal for a hierarchical list without spending a large amount
of time examining many of the complexities hierarchy brings. 

I did offer a counter-proposal in my mail that serves the immediate goal
of chunking data without requiring modifications to the list box's
structure. I believe my proposal serves the immediate goals of the WAI
group and also ensures that we do not limit a further definition of a
structured, hierarchical list box.  Whatever our mandate is beyond HTML
4.0, I definitely believe a rich hierarchical list box/ menu should be
on our requirements.

Please don't read my objections the wrong way. I agree completely with
the goals of the accessibility group as I also see the positive impact
the WAI's work has at improving the usability and accessibility of the
web for everyone. I want us to be extremely careful before we modify the
structure of any existing HTML construct and examine the existing and
future impact of the enhancements beyond adding contextual and semantic
hints and clarifications.

-Scott

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	T. V. Raman [SMTP:raman@Adobe.COM]
> Sent:	Monday, October 27, 1997 1:38 PM
> To:	'w3c-html-wg@w3.org'
> Cc:	'Dan Connolly'; w3c-wai-hc@w3.org
> Subject:	RE: SELECT/ OPTION GROUPS with the SIZE attribute
> 
> Scott> I must be missing something about postponing this to
> Scott> another working draft - what is the rush to put this
> Scott> in HTML 4.0 and what is the objection to having
> Scott> another working draft post HTML 4.0 that addresses this?
> 
> The attempt of us folks on the WAI to make sure that the
>  accessibility recommendations make it into the officialW3C
>  HTML 4.0recommendation is the hope and assumption that
>  unlike in the case of commercial browser shipping
>  deadlines, mainstream and accessibility features*will* get
>  treated on an equal footing within the W3C.
> 
> The recent past has evinced quite clearly that the above
> does not hold in the case of commercial browser ship
> decisions-- features affecting a minority of users do not
> typically hold back major product shipments.
> I cannot see any major vendor shipping a browser if the
> mouse support does not work-- but accessibility support does
> not typically have the same impact on shipment.
> 
> However,I for one would be very disappointed in the
> effectiveness of the WAI if the same happened in the case of
> W3C recommendations. So at the meta-level, this is why I and
> others in the WAI would wish to make sure that no
> accessibility recommendation gets shoved aside for the
> "future".
> 
> Many of us in the WAI have worked especially hard in the
> last month (as evinced by the volume on the mailing list)
> to meet the constraints of the HTML-WG's working deadlines--
> at this point the onus is on the WG to:
> 
> 1) Give these recommendations a fair hearing (which Dan
>    Connolly as the chair of the HTML-WG has bee doing)
> 
> 2) a) For members of the HTML-WG
> to constructively  IMPROVE THESE RECOMMENDATIONS WHERE NECESSARY 
> 
> b) Propose effective alternatives if appropriate
> --and if proposing an alternative describe clearly how the
> alternative will meet all of the 
> needs addressed by the recommendation being replaced)
> 3) Integrate the updated recommendations into the official
>    4.0 recommendation
> 
> 
> I and others on the WAI-WG would be more than happy to
> consider and review any alternative proposals or
> constructive improvements that members of the HTML-WG can
> put forth based on their greater experience. 
> 
>  --Raman
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --raman
> 
>       Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-129)
>       Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
>       (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
>       San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
>       http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
>       http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should
> be taken
> as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
> ____________________________________________________________
Received on Monday, 27 October 1997 17:07:14 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 19:56:11 UTC