RE: Target Size (Min) Updates

It’s getting confusing from a publication perspective, too. Is the list of
links in the table of contents or an index subject to this success criterion
or not? They’re sections in the “main content” of a publication.

 

Matt

 

From: Mary Jo Mueller <maryjom@us.ibm.com> 
Sent: January 10, 2023 12:00 PM
To: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Target Size (Min) Updates

 

I’m starting to get a little heartburn over the rewording suggestions as
they are becoming increasingly web-centric. The more we add in web-specific
language (“page”, “main content”), the more work to make non-web
interpretation for these in WCAG2ICT. Such changes seem unnecessary to me,
or maybe I’m not understanding the concerns fully. 

 

Coming back off of 3 weeks vacation, I’m also starting to get lost in these
active CFC conversations with all of the suggestions flying around and what
they actually might look like within the SC as a whole.

 

Mary Jo Mueller

IBM Accessibility Standards Program Manager

 

From: Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com
<mailto:michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> >
Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 10:37 AM
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>
>, Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org
<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org> >
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com
<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com> >, w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Target Size (Min) Updates

ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž 

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My slight concern with “in the body of the page” is that someone could
interpret that as the HTML <body> tag. My inclination would be to say “in
the main content of the page” which both seems synonymous with the non-html
meaning of ‘body of page’ as well as aligning better with the HTML semantic
meaning of <main>, which is normally provides a division from left and top
<navigation>, etc.

 

That rewording would apply to both variations you give.

 

I also think in your proposed combined single exception, you either need to
add another “in” before the second phrase, or combine the first two, to keep
things parallel. It would end up reading:

*	Inline: The target is in a sentence or in a list in the main content
on the page, or the size of the target is otherwise constrained by the
line-height of non-target text;

 

 

 

From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com
<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com> >
Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:28 AM
To: Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org
<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org> >
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com
<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com> >, w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Target Size (Min) Updates

ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž
ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž ž 

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Ok so that would make the SC (removing other exceptions):

-------------

The size of the target
<https://w3c.github.io/wcag/guidelines/22/#dfn-targets>  for pointer inputs
<https://w3c.github.io/wcag/guidelines/22/#dfn-pointer-inputs>  is at least
24 by 24 CSS pixels
<https://w3c.github.io/wcag/guidelines/22/#dfn-css-pixels> , except where:

*	…
*	Inline: The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is
otherwise constrained by the line-height of non-target text;
*	Lists: Links in lists that are in the body of the page and not part
of overall navigation repeated across multiple pages.
*	…

-------------

 

However, I think that “in the body of the page” and “not part of navigation”
are mutually exclusive, do we need both?

 

Anything part of navigation is (generally) not going to have non-link-text
in the same elements.

 

How about 1 exception of:

*	Inline: The target is in a sentence, a list in the body of the page,
or the size of the target is otherwise constrained by the line-height of
non-target text;

 

I.e. adding “a list in the body of the page” as an explicit element to
except.

 

Kind regards,

 

-Alastair

 

From: Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org
<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org> >
Date: Monday, 9 January 2023 at 19:21
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>
>
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com
<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com> >, w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: Target Size (Min) Updates

Thanks for the example Alastair.  

Really helps

 

I think that — if our intent is to exclude navigation links — but not links
in text

 

That we should use  Detlev’s  suggestion  

 

1.	Generally exempt link targets that are not part of the overall
navigation structure (repeated across pages). (I realize "overall" and
"page-specific" might be difficult to differentiate)
2.	Generally exempt link targets in all lists that include any list
items that contain non-linked text

 

I think we can word this as

Except 

*	links in lists that are in the body of the page and not part of
overall navigation repeated across multiple pages. 

 

 

gregg

 

------------------------------

Gregg Vanderheiden

gregg@vanderheiden.us <mailto:gregg@vanderheiden.us> 

 

 

 

On Jan 9, 2023, at 6:49 AM, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com
<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com> > wrote:

 

Hi Jon, Gregg,

 

I think Jon is correct, apologies for using just underline, but for example:

 

*	A link with text
*	Another line of text
*	Another line with a link

 

Would clearly be exempt (therefore pass).

 

This example would clearly not be exempt (due to zero non-link text):

*	A link
*	Another link

 

The oddest example would be:

 

*	A line of complete link.
*	A line of text and a link.
*	A line with no link.
*	A line of link except for the full stop.

 

Only the first item would NOT be exempt. (I think the full stop counts as
text?)

 

We’ve looked at defining it by areas of the page, or by type of element, but
neither seemed to work well across the different types of sites and
technologies covered.

 

Personally, I think this is much better than the “inline” exception in the
AAA SC, and we should include it by errata in the older SC as well.

 

Chair hat on – if anyone wishes to argue that the utility of the SC is not
sufficient for the cost, we can discuss that (which would mean getting
consensus to remove it). Otherwise, it needs these updates.

 

Kind regards,

 

-Alastair

 

 

From: Jon Avila < <mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
Date: Friday, 6 January 2023 at 22:14
To: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org < <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: RE: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates

Hi Gregg, I read it differently – I read your example with spaced out list
would not be needed to pass as is constrained by the line-height of
non-target text.

 

“The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is otherwise
constrained by the line-height of non-target text;</li>”

 

What we do want to flag is a list of only links only with no text, e.g. used
for navigation.

 

Jonathan

 

From: Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org
<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org> > 
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 5:01 PM
To: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>
>
Subject: Re: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates

 

Hmmm

 

I guess is I vote 0 unless others agree with me on this.  

(I would vote -1 but I don’t want to derail this if it is just me)

 

MY CONCERN

 

Right now - the text exception applies only to links in blocks of text like
paragraphs etc.   It does not apply to lists however. 

 

So 

 

Having a link in the sentence is ok because it is 

in a paragraph of text.  But if I add some bullets

*	A link here would fail
*	Because it is in a list

I think this is very bad 

since these rules will be applied everywhere and not just web content

 

 

That the means if I want to conform 

 

*	And I put in links here in a list
*	I need to space out my 
*	List in the gappy fashion
*	In order to conform

 

And then if I have another list in the same document but it doesn’t happen
to have a link in it 

*	I can then space it 
*	Like this
*	Even if in the same document

 

The only way to not have it be spacey is if I know how to do things like
padding etc. 

Which I do not know how to do in this HTML email 

And I also don’t know how to do in many other technologies.

And a very large number of people who make up web pages - do not know how to
do padding etc. 

 

This will also be applied to word documents etc.   Do you know how to change
the line height of the lines in the table of contents in the word document?
(I do - but it is beyond the skills of most people who use word and involved
changing styles sheet formats for styles called TOC etc.)

 

 

 

I predict - that if we keep this as is — this will be the most frequent
violation of WGAG by people who tried to make their pages accessible - (and
replace 4.1.1 as a selling point error for overlay companies)

 

I would suggest that lists that are part of text - be treated as text.

 

A slight change something like  

 

FROM:

The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is otherwise
constrained by the line-height of non-target text;

	

TO:

The target is in a sentence or a list, or the size of the target is
constrained by the line-height of non-target text;

	

 

Or some such.

 

I leave it to the group to decide if this is a general concern or just mine.
Personally I think it is a problem. 

 

 

Best 

 

 

gregg









On Jan 6, 2023, at 10:36 AM, Ku, JaEun Jemma <jku@uic.edu
<mailto:jku@uic.edu> > wrote:

 

+1

 

Best,

 

JaEun Jemma Ku, Ph.D.

Director of IT Accessibility

Editor of
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.or
g%2FWAI%2FARIA%2Fapg%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a
74337691008daf276a637%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638088888
666691124%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi
I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sRBTPcGrHiFwQGmg4bTm7Y%2Fs09K
%2BbiQCxtkmuim7shU%3D&reserved=0> W3C ARIA Authoring Practice Guide

 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Foae.uic.e
du%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a
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<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fit.uic.ed
u%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a6
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eserved=0> Technology Solutions

 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uic.e
du%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a
637%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638088888666691124%7CUnknow
n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vq5AJQyZMeWyKBaMeS1NHa03c4vQAvjLB%2F9wG%2F5t3v0
%3D&reserved=0> University of Illinois Chicago

Email:  <mailto:jku@uic.edu> jku@uic.edu

 

From: Alastair Campbell < <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>
acampbell@nomensa.com>
Date: Friday, January 6, 2023 11:51 AM
To: WCAG list ( <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <
<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates

Call For Consensus — ends Thursday January 12th at 1pm Boston time.

  

There are two proposed updates to the exceptions in Target Size (Minimum):

 

1.	Inline exception: 
 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.co
m%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2856%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%
7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a637%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C
0%7C638088888666691124%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV
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MpLi%2Bz6HzJaLSzL7gmQ0hvsiD%2F4qc%3D&reserved=0>
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2856/files







2.	Target offset (including the definition):
 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.co
m%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2798%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%
7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a637%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C
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jJWgn%2BKRyAtIIspNVRhpCA94wjmUI%3D&reserved=0>
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2798/files

 

These were discussed here:

 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.or
g%2F2022%2F12%2F06-ag-minutes%23t02&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7
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BTzxgwjiEPGlOtCl6YC1bJfLdhSo%3D&reserved=0>
https://www.w3.org/2022/12/06-ag-minutes#t02

And:

 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.
org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2022OctDec%2F0178.html&data=05%7C01%7
Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a637%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43
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7C&sdata=bpy8%2FcRNmkMX8LgwOZzzK7As4ABIw7Dr5j9gKUYV%2Fik%3D&reserved=0>
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2022OctDec/0178.html

 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.
org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2023JanMar%2F0008.html&data=05%7C01%7
Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf276a637%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43
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https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023JanMar/0008.html

And surveyed (although subsequently updated):

 
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.or
g%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2Fwcag22-misc-normative%2Fresults%23xq10&data=05
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%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JTcZTzv3gCwt%2F0i3PhUybQeYkvAYxHtRMg3eEp95HtI%3D&reserved=0>
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-misc-normative/results#xq10

 

If excepted, we can raise an errata to align the inline exception in Target
Size (Enhanced).

 

If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not
been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not being
able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before the CfC
deadline.

 

Kind regards,

 

-Alastair

 

-- 

 

@alastc /
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomens
a.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cbb92e8f9e0a74337691008daf2
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3D&reserved=0> www.nomensa.com

 

 

gregg

———————————
Professor, University of Maryland, College Park
Founder and Director Emeritus , Trace R&D Center, UMD
Co-Founder Raising the Floor. http://raisingthefloor.org
The Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure (GPII) http://GPII.net
The Morphic project  https://morphic.org

Received on Tuesday, 10 January 2023 18:24:41 UTC