Re: Qays to improve findability of surveys in email

My experience is similar to Wendy's. It's one of the reasons I don't 
participate in the surveys as a rule.


One of the reasons I like Github is that it has good semantic structure, 
so I find things like navigating pages and between comments very convenient.


This post from Github on 17 May is a good overview of their 
accessibility journey so far, and their continued efforts:

https://github.blog/2023-05-17-designs-journey-towards-accessibility/



On 18/05/2023 4:11 PM, Reid, Wendy wrote:
>
> I am one of those people who have a really hard time with the WBS 
> surveys. I find the cognitive load of having multiple tabs open with 
> documents, Github, the survey all a little too much on top of 
> everything else in my day.
>
> I’ll add that a reason I like Github for this sort of thing is not 
> only is it isolated to one place/two windows at most if I’m reviewing 
> a draft, but I can easily see other comments. WBS forces me to go in 
> with my opinion exclusively, or based on a few GH comments, and I 
> would much rather see the entire discussion, what everyone’s thoughts 
> are, and determine from there whether I have anything to add to the 
> conversation or if my initial opinion has been swayed.
>
> I’m not saying GH is the only place this is possible, it’s a tool that 
> is available to us that achieves the goal of simplifying.
>
> -Wendy
>
> *From: *John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
> *Date: *Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 10:22 AM
> *To: *Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com>
> *Cc: *Bradley Montgomery, Rachael L <rmontgomery@loc.gov>, Alastair 
> Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>, WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) 
> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Qays to improve findability of surveys in email
>
> *[EXTERNAL] *This message comes from an external organization.
>
> Hi Tzviya,
>
> >  ...isn’t [it] even more challenging to use GitHub plus another tool 
> that is completely unique to W3C?
>
> GitHub still has accessibility concerns. I acknowledge that they are 
> starting to address those issues (as this blog post from 6 months ago 
> notes: 
> https://github.blog/2022-12-02-github-accessibility-and-the-disability-divide/) 
> but today that commitment has not been fully realized, and issues 
> remain. Attempting to move every piece of WG discussion and decision 
> making into GitHub sort of reminds me of the old saying, "/When all 
> you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail/". WBS Surveys have 
> served us well over the many years I've been a participant at the W3C, 
> and change for change's sake can be frustrating to some: digging out 
> another old saying, "/If it ain't broke, why fix it?/".
>
> Are there issues or concerns with WBS that you or others are 
> struggling with? (Outside of using more than one tool to do our work?)
>
>
> JF
>
> On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 9:28 AM Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com> 
> wrote:
>
>     Can I ask a more general question, and forgive me if this is
>     revisiting a topic that has already been discussed. Why are we
>     using both WBS and GitHub? Standard practice in most Working
>     Groups is to have discussion and some form of cfc (if relevant) in
>     GitHub. This means that people don’t have to switch between WBS
>     and GitHub, which I personally find very challenging. It also
>     means that the record of discussion is preserved with the pull
>     request. I know that there has been a lot of discussion about
>     challenges of using GitHub, but isn’t even more challenging to use
>     GitHub plus another tool that is completely unique to W3C?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Tzviya
>
>     *Tzviya Siegman*
>
>     Information Standards Principal
>
>     Wiley
>
>     201-748-6884
>
>     tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>     *From:*Bradley Montgomery, Rachael L <rmontgomery@loc.gov>
>     *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 7:15 AM
>     *To:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; WCAG list
>     (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* Qays to improve findability of surveys in email
>
>     ⛔
>
>      
>
>     This is an external email.
>
>     Hello,
>
>     A few points:
>
>     I have changed the subject line on this email and all participants
>     doing this would also help.
>
>     We could flip the order and say SURVEYS and AGENDA.
>
>       * Would that help?
>       * Would that confuse others?
>
>     We can survey this for discussion at a future meeting. (sorry for
>     the irony of that statement) If others have ideas on how to
>     approach this problem, please let the list or chairs know and we
>     can include them.
>
>     Kind regards,
>
>     Rachael
>
>     *From: *Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
>     *Date: *Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 6:00 AM
>     *To: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>     *Subject: *Re: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting
>     May 16th 2023
>     *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>     *Resent-Date: *Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 5:59 AM
>
>     *CAUTION:*This email message has been received from an external
>     source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking
>     on links.
>
>     Hi folks,
>
>     The original email of the thread was this one:
>
>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023AprJun/0145.html
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023AprJun/0145.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!qmI3XN6ztBsXa0jxA_Ki0FwAA__tTtg00A7ihcaGhHhDgi8Zq9KqoVygTqp7JN7e9R7qAZ6bk2rv2Gj_Ly7T$>
>
>     The agenda **is** the links to the survey.
>
>     In 95% of meetings[1] we are reviewing one or more surveys. Could
>     you take the term “Agenda” as a trigger for checking the surveys
>     contained in it?
>
>     The alternative is duplication and more emails.
>
>     -Alastair
>
>     1] I made that stat up, but it’s a lot.
>
>     *From: *Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com>
>     *Date: *Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 06:45
>     *To: *Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com>
>     *Cc: *Jennifer Strickland <jstrickland@mitre.org>, Bruce Bailey
>     <Bailey@access-board.gov>, WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org)
>     <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org>
>     *Subject: *Re: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting
>     May 16th 2023
>
>     Hi Lori,
>
>     1) those of us with low vision frequently need to increase the
>     size of the text to the degree that many things are commonly
>     truncated.
>
>     2) this particular thread has the subject "agenda and surveys",
>     and yet there are no surveys anywhere that I can find anywhere in
>     this thread.
>
>     3) what I was trying to say is it would be helpful if there was a
>     separate email that had the word SURVEY as the first word in the
>     subject, and had nothing in it but links to the surveys.
>
>     *Andrew Somers *
>
>     Senior Color Science Researcher
>
>     /Address redacted for list/
>
>         On May 17, 2023, at 2:29 PM, Lori Oakley
>         <lori.oakley@oracle.com <mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
>         I wasn't aware that subjects were getting truncated, in that
>         case, I agree with Andrew.
>
>         *From:*Jennifer Strickland <jstrickland@mitre.org
>         <mailto:jstrickland@mitre.org>>
>         *Sent:*Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:08 AM
>         *To:*Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com
>         <mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>>; Andrew Somers
>         <andy@generaltitles.com <mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>;
>         Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov
>         <mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
>         *Cc:*WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>)
>         <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Silver TF
>         <public-silver@w3.org <mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
>         *Subject:*Re: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG
>         Meeting May 16th 2023
>
>         I agree with Andrew. If there’s a survey, it would help me if
>         the subject line starts with SURVEYs. In my Outlook email app
>         subject lines are truncated and I often don’t see more than
>         the first few letters, especially for [EXT] email.
>
>         *From:*Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com
>         <mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>>
>         *Date:*Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 11:58 AM
>         *To:*Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com
>         <mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>, Bruce Bailey
>         <Bailey@access-board.gov <mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
>         *Cc:*WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>)
>         <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>, Silver TF
>         <public-silver@w3.org <mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
>         *Subject:*RE: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG
>         Meeting May 16th 2023
>
>         Hi Andrew,
>
>         The email that is sent has the following Subject: AGENDA and
>         Surveys. In it are links to the surveys, which in turn have
>         the PR numbers with links. Here's the last email from Chuck to
>         the group:* AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023.*
>
>         Are you not getting these emails?
>
>         Lori
>
>         Lori Oakley
>
>         CX Service Accessibility Lead
>
>         Accessibility Guidelines WCAG
>
>         <image001.png>
>
>         *From:*Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com
>         <mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>
>         *Sent:*Tuesday, May 16, 2023 5:43 PM
>         *To:*Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov
>         <mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
>         *Cc:*WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>)
>         <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Silver TF
>         <public-silver@w3.org <mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
>         *Subject:*[External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting
>         May 16th 2023
>
>         Just to comment on one thing/:/
>
>         /> … but relatively few people filling in surveys…../
>
>         I don’t know about others, but I am frequently not receiving
>         notices of surveys.
>
>         It would be most helpful if:
>
>         1) each survey had an email specific to there being that
>         survey, and the survey notice was not just buried in some
>         other email.
>
>         2) the first word of the subject line was “SURVEY: …”
>
>         Thank you,
>
>         Andy
>
>         Sent from Andy’s iPhone
>
>             On May 16, 2023, at 9:55 AM, Bruce Bailey
>             <Bailey@access-board.gov <mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
>             wrote:
>
>             but relatively few people filling in surveys.
>
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>
> -- 
>
> *John Foliot* |
> Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility |
> W3C Accessibility Standards Contributor |
>
> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." 
> - Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"
>
-- 
Léonie Watson (she/her)
Director
https://tetralogical.com