Re: Qays to improve findability of surveys in email

I am one of those people who have a really hard time with the WBS surveys. I find the cognitive load of having multiple tabs open with documents, Github, the survey all a little too much on top of everything else in my day.

I’ll add that a reason I like Github for this sort of thing is not only is it isolated to one place/two windows at most if I’m reviewing a draft, but I can easily see other comments. WBS forces me to go in with my opinion exclusively, or based on a few GH comments, and I would much rather see the entire discussion, what everyone’s thoughts are, and determine from there whether I have anything to add to the conversation or if my initial opinion has been swayed.

I’m not saying GH is the only place this is possible, it’s a tool that is available to us that achieves the goal of simplifying.

-Wendy

From: John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 10:22 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Cc: Bradley Montgomery, Rachael L <rmontgomery@loc.gov>, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>, WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Qays to improve findability of surveys in email

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
Hi Tzviya,

>  ...isn’t [it] even more challenging to use GitHub plus another tool that is completely unique to W3C?
GitHub still has accessibility concerns. I acknowledge that they are starting to address those issues (as this blog post from 6 months ago notes: https://github.blog/2022-12-02-github-accessibility-and-the-disability-divide/) but today that commitment has not been fully realized, and issues remain. Attempting to move every piece of WG discussion and decision making into GitHub sort of reminds me of the old saying, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". WBS Surveys have served us well over the many years I've been a participant at the W3C, and change for change's sake can be frustrating to some: digging out another old saying, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?".

Are there issues or concerns with WBS that you or others are struggling with? (Outside of using more than one tool to do our work?)

JF



On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 9:28 AM Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
Can I ask a more general question, and forgive me if this is revisiting a topic that has already been discussed. Why are we using both WBS and GitHub? Standard practice in most Working Groups is to have discussion and some form of cfc (if relevant) in GitHub. This means that people don’t have to switch between WBS and GitHub, which I personally find very challenging. It also means that the record of discussion is preserved with the pull request. I know that there has been a lot of discussion about challenges of using GitHub, but isn’t even more challenging to use GitHub plus another tool that is completely unique to W3C?

Thanks,
Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Principal
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Bradley Montgomery, Rachael L <rmontgomery@loc.gov<mailto:rmontgomery@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 7:15 AM
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Qays to improve findability of surveys in email

⛔
This is an external email.
Hello,

A few points:

I have changed the subject line on this email and all participants doing this would also help.

We could flip the order and say SURVEYS and AGENDA.

  *   Would that help?
  *   Would that confuse others?

We can survey this for discussion at a future meeting. (sorry for the irony of that statement) If others have ideas on how to approach this problem, please let the list or chairs know and we can include them.

Kind regards,

Rachael

From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 6:00 AM
To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023
Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 5:59 AM


CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on links.
Hi folks,

The original email of the thread was this one:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023AprJun/0145.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023AprJun/0145.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!qmI3XN6ztBsXa0jxA_Ki0FwAA__tTtg00A7ihcaGhHhDgi8Zq9KqoVygTqp7JN7e9R7qAZ6bk2rv2Gj_Ly7T$>

The agenda *is* the links to the survey.

In 95% of meetings[1] we are reviewing one or more surveys. Could you take the term “Agenda” as a trigger for checking the surveys contained in it?

The alternative is duplication and more emails.

-Alastair

1] I made that stat up, but it’s a lot.



From: Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com<mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>
Date: Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 06:45
To: Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com<mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>>
Cc: Jennifer Strickland <jstrickland@mitre.org<mailto:jstrickland@mitre.org>>, Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov<mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>, WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>, Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023
Hi Lori,

1) those of us with low vision frequently need to increase the size of the text to the degree that many things are commonly truncated.

2) this particular thread has the subject "agenda and surveys", and yet there are no surveys anywhere that I can find anywhere in this thread.

3) what I was trying to say is it would be helpful if there was a separate email that had the word SURVEY as the first word in the subject, and had nothing in it but links to the surveys.

Andrew Somers
Senior Color Science Researcher
Address redacted for list

On May 17, 2023, at 2:29 PM, Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com<mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>> wrote:

I wasn't aware that subjects were getting truncated, in that case, I agree with Andrew.

From: Jennifer Strickland <jstrickland@mitre.org<mailto:jstrickland@mitre.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:08 AM
To: Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com<mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>>; Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com<mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>; Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov<mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023

I agree with Andrew. If there’s a survey, it would help me if the subject line starts with SURVEYs. In my Outlook email app subject lines are truncated and I often don’t see more than the first few letters, especially for [EXT] email.



From: Lori Oakley <lori.oakley@oracle.com<mailto:lori.oakley@oracle.com>>
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 11:58 AM
To: Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com<mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>, Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov<mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>, Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023
Hi Andrew,

The email that is sent has the following Subject: AGENDA and Surveys. In it are links to the surveys, which in turn have the PR numbers with links. Here's the last email from Chuck to the group:  AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023.

Are you not getting these emails?

Lori
Lori Oakley
CX Service Accessibility Lead
Accessibility Guidelines WCAG
<image001.png>



From: Andrew Somers <andy@generaltitles.com<mailto:andy@generaltitles.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 5:43 PM
To: Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov<mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Subject: [External] : Re: AGENDA and Surveys - AGWG Meeting May 16th 2023

Just to comment on one thing:

> … but relatively few people filling in surveys…..

I don’t know about others, but I am frequently not receiving notices of surveys.

It would be most helpful if:

1) each survey had an email specific to there being that survey, and the survey notice was not just buried in some other email.

2) the first word of the subject line was “SURVEY: …”



Thank you,

Andy
Sent from Andy’s iPhone

On May 16, 2023, at 9:55 AM, Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov<mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>> wrote:
but relatively few people filling in surveys.

________________________________
The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, review, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete all copies of the email and any attachments.
Click here for translations of this disclaimer.<https://secure.wiley.com/email-disclaimers>
________________________________


--
John Foliot |
Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility |
W3C Accessibility Standards Contributor |
"I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." - Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"