Re: Are there more effective ways to use this mailing list to engage members & make decisions

I'm also finding github very usable. While for me this is mostly the gh
suite of commandline tools actively maintained by github, I do also use
the web interface both with Firefox and Chrome.

This is not to say that I don't get stuck from time to time. The github
environment is a powerful toolset, and I tend to learn just the tool I
need at any given moment and then continue to reuse it. When
circumstances require me to acquire skills with some aspect of github
I've yet to learn, it's back to rtfm for me.

PS: Let me add a brief comment on my favorite aspect of the gh way of
doing github. The help provided is context sensitive, e.g.

gh --help
gh issue --help
gh issue view --help

all provide very different responses appropriate to the amount of
specificity provided in the incomplete command utterance. This is a
powerful change to how the classic command line of 20-40 years ago
worked (and still works on Linux and in the BSD-based MacOS Terminal).
Afaik, it's an innovation from Microsoft in their reinvention of CLI
known as Power Shell. Other environments (including javascript) are
picking up this new approach, i.e. this is not your grandfather's CLI.

Janina


Léonie Watson writes:
> The Github website is quite usable with a screen reader in my experience. I
> know the website had, and may still have, challenges for magnifier users,
> and possibly others too, but certainly when it comes to using Github issues,
> I can't think of anything that can't be done using a screen reader.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 28/04/2023 4:33 PM, Mike Gifford wrote:
> > So I’ve tried to put pressure on GitHub years ago to improve their
> > accessibility. That effort wasn’t all that successful, but I think they
> > did make some improvements to the interface.
> > 
> > I’ve reached out to a couple people I know involved in GitHub’s
> > accessibility. I do think it is worth other folks putting some pressure
> > on them too. Ultimately, GitHub is where so much tech innovation
> > happens. If members of the W3C can’t use GitHub to engage in a project’s
> > development, then they can’t help make products more accessible, and
> > clients like governments really shouldn’t be building off of them
> > either. The W3C is important, but making GitHub more accessible is
> > probably at least as important. Maybe Microsoft can do some “3rd party”
> > testing on it. Certainly the members of this group will have some clout
> > as they represent entities that likely have enterprise contracts with
> > GitHub.
> > 
> > However, once the issue queue is more accessible to screen reader users
> > who use the web interface, I think that voting via the issue queue could
> > work.
> > 
> > Yes, people can change their thumbs up/down vote on an issue. However, I
> > think the API could actually just allow you to take a snapshot of the
> > votes at a particular time and post them as a snapshot at a particular
> > moment. So yes, you’d be able to change your vote afterwards, but there
> > would be a static capture of who voted a that moment. A more manual
> > method would be to either take a screenshot of votes or create a custom
> > Greesemonkey script to extract the values for the votes into a method
> > that could be easily cut/paste into a comment. And yes, GitHub should
> > make this easier, so we don’t have to hack a solution.
> > 
> > Maybe we have to stick to voting by email for now. I suspect that some
> > folks will resist moving to GitHub even after usability and
> > accessibility issues are addressed there. Maybe it is possible to have
> > some folks vote on GitHub & everyone else continue to vote via email,
> > but have the combined results recorded on GitHub.
> > 
> > I do think that the use of <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> could be more strategic
> > and useful, if we could have focused discussions done within an
> > accessible GitHub repository. I don’t know. I’m not an expert at this.
> > It just seems like it isn’t the most effective way to use the technology
> > to its best advantage.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > Ps. I changed the title, as this is often a problem that happens when
> > threads get forked in mailing lists (and indeed other threaded
> > communications).
> > 
> > 
> > Mike Gifford, Senior Strategist, CivicActions
> > Drupal Core Accessibility Maintainer
> > https://civicactions.com   | https://accessibility.civicactions.com
> > http://twitter.com/mgifford | http://linkedin.com/in/mgifford
> > 
> > On April 27, 2023 at 12:36:45 PM, Jennifer Strickland
> > (jstrickland@mitre.org) wrote:
> > 
> > > When I joined AGWG I was surprised by the email voting. It seemed so
> > > antiquated compared to the developer environments I was used to.
> > > 
> > > After collaborating with some of our colleagues I grew to appreciate
> > > how Github isn’t accessible (in all forms of that word) for many.
> > > 
> > > The email voting gets the job done and allows the diverse
> > > perspectives to participate.
> > > 
> > > Setting a filter or a label gave my inbox some relief.
> > > 
> > > *From: *Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
> > > *Date: *Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:32 AM
> > > *To: *WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > *Subject: *[EXT] Re[2]: Understanding dismay
> > > 
> > > Worth noting here that the voting / CFC is aimed only at WG members on
> > > the GL list. Putting it on GitHub would likely lead to "randoms" voting
> > > as well, which then would require deduping/verifying votes?
> > > 
> > > P
> > > --
> > > Patrick H. Lauke
> > > 
> > > https://www.splintered.co.uk/ / https://github.com/patrickhlauke /
> > > https://codepen.io/patrickhlauke
> > > https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ / https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> > > https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ------ Original Message ------
> > > From "Mike Gifford" <mike.gifford@civicactions.com>
> > > To "WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org)" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; "Andrew
> > > Kirkpatrick" <akirkpat@adobe.com>
> > > Date 27/04/2023 16:00:03
> > > Subject Re: Understanding dismay
> > > 
> > > >Thanks for asking Andrew,
> > > >
> > > >I’m sure this has been brought up before, but I’m not part of any other
> > > >group that does this. I’m part of lots of other groups.
> > > >
> > > >Normally in tech projects people go to GitHub & give a Thumbs-Up if a
> > > >vote is needed. That becomes the default voting mechanism for many
> > > >projects.
> > > >
> > > >I could see the W3C setting up a simple link that allows logged in
> > > >users to record a yes/no on a particular decision.
> > > >
> > > >I know that there are folks that don’t like GitHub. Like any tool, it
> > > >isn’t perfect. I know setting up online voting systems can be expensive
> > > >and can carry their own set of challenges.
> > > >
> > > >But there is a lot of email discussions that take place on this list.
> > > >It clutters up a lot of folks inboxes. Adds to our cognitive load.
> > > >Sure, it is a lowest-common-denominator solution that works. However,
> > > >how many people does it drive away from the W3C? How many folks just
> > > >filter the emails, and become disengaged from the conversation.
> > > >
> > > >I don’t know the answers to this. Maybe a hybrid option could work.
> > > >Pushing most conversations and discussions to GitHub, where many of us
> > > >would find it more useful, but allowing some folks to have some
> > > >conversations in the mailing list because that is their preference. It
> > > >is all a bit awkward.
> > > >
> > > >I figured that because I’m new I should ask this before I too become
> > > >accustomed to a pattern (that seems broken).
> > > >
> > > >Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Mike Gifford, Senior Strategist, CivicActions
> > > >Drupal Core Accessibility Maintainer
> > > >https://civicactions.com <https://civicactions.com/> |
> > > >https://accessibility.civicactions.com
> > > >http://twitter.com/mgifford | http://linkedin.com/in/mgifford
> > > >
> > > >On April 27, 2023 at 9:16:14 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > >(akirkpat@adobe.com) wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>Mike,
> > > >>
> > > >>Can you explain why this process is dismaying?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>FYI, we changed to using the CFC process which includes an extended
> > > >>period of time for respondents around the world to have time to
> > > >>respond to decisions without attending a call that may be at 2am for
> > > >>them. All of the CFC responses are recorded in the W3C’s system for a
> > > >>permanent record.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Thanks,
> > > >>
> > > >>AWK
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > >>
> > > >>Director, Accessibility
> > > >>
> > > >>Adobe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>akirkpat@adobe.com
> > > >>
> > > >>http://twitter.com/awkawk
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>From: Mike Gifford <mike.gifford@civicactions.com>
> > > >>Date: Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:43 AM
> > > >>To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > >>Subject: Re: CFC Move WCAG 2.2 to Candidate Recommendation
> > > >>Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > >>Resent-Date: Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:42 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>+1 Thanks.
> > > >>
> > > >>Also, a bit dismayed that we're voting via email.
> > > >>
> > > >>Mike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 7:17 AM Bradley Montgomery, Rachael L
> > > >><rmontgomery@loc.gov> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>+1
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> > > >>>Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 7:14 PM
> > > >>>To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > >>>Subject: CFC Move WCAG 2.2 to Candidate Recommendation
> > > >>>Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > >>>Resent-Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 7:12 PM
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external
> > > >>>source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on
> > > >>>links.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Hi everyone,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Call For Consensus — ends Tuesday 2nd April at 5pm Boston time.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The Working Group has agreed (in meetings) to re-start the Candidate
> > > >>>Recommendation stage for WCAG 2.2.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>This CFC is to approve that transition into CR, including the changes
> > > >>>made since the last one.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>There are updates to Target Size and Focus Appearance, which can be
> > > >>>viewed here:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/3123/files
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>These two SCs will be marked ‘at risk’, with a fallback to the
> > > >>>previous versions. If that fall back is also not agreed, then it
> > > >>>would result in removal. (For Focus Appearance, the fallback would be
> > > >>>the previous text at AAA level.)
> > > >>>The fallbacks for ‘at risk’ are subject to approval from W3C
> > > >>>management, we would return to the group if it is not approved.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Minor changes since the last CR:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>A non-normative change to Focus Not Obscured (adjusting the notes)
> > > >>>was agreed: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/3083/files Accessibility
> > > >>>Authentication had “(minimum)” added to the name:
> > > >>>https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/3132/files
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have
> > > >>>not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you
> > > >>>“not being able to live with” this decision, please let the group
> > > >>>know before the CfC deadline.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Kind regards,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>-Alastair
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>--
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>@alastc / www.nomensa.com <http://www.nomensa.com>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>--
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Mike Gifford, Senior Strategist, CivicActions
> > > >>
> > > >>Drupal Core Accessibility Maintainer
> > > >>
> > > >>https://civicactions.com <https://civicactions.com/> |
> > > >>https://accessibility.civicactions.com
> > > >><https://accessibility.civicactions.com/>
> > > >>
> > > >>http://twitter.com/mgifford | http://linkedin.com/in/mgifford
> > > >>
> > > 
> -- 
> Léonie Watson (she/her)
> Director
> https://tetralogical.com

-- 

Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

Linux Foundation Fellow
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/

Received on Sunday, 30 April 2023 09:20:53 UTC