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Re: Consistent help

From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 22:26:53 +0000
To: Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>
CC: "WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org)" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, COGA TF <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <PR3PR09MB53476901EF960DD7F91DB07CB9A29@PR3PR09MB5347.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Hi Melanie,

This SC did come from the COGA TF and is intended to benefit people with cognitive issues, although others may also benefit.

We could not find a reasonable (i.e. testable and feasible) method of saying something is in visually the same place. So we used “same relative order” as a close proxy.

There are scenarios (as Jon identified) where you can meet the letter without meeting the spirit. However, trying to prevent those scenarios in a WCAG 2 context would cause un-intended side effects.

Kind regards,

-Alastair


From: Melanie Philipp
If this SC came from the COGA TF, then I'd like to understand if the need is being met if:

  1.  The help can appear visually in different locations of the page from page-to-page, OR
  2.  If it is plainly visible on one page and inside a closed toggle section on another.
Or is this SC only aimed at screen reader users, and therefore only the serialized code order matters?

Thank you,

Melanie Philipp, CPACC, WAS | Director, Services Methodology | 540-848-5220
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
www.deque.com<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deque.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Ca9e85c560b5e4f9cf0bc08da47f4a216%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637901413260341318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=p9AKQ4Hh3gBd37dAzItW9Cw%2FmVzjrAxfs7SN8T9zMOc%3D&reserved=0>


On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 11:08 AM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi everyone,

There are a couple of issues left (opened by JonA), which I think have straightforward answers, but Jon would like to check they match everyone’s understanding.

The first is:
“I've seen instances where in the same responsive variation the help mechanism is visually in different locations but serially in the same order. That is on one page it's at the end of content but before the footer in the main area and on another page it's also between the content and the footer but on the right side (same variation/viewport). Does that meet the SC as the note implies? It seems like it would be best otherwise - but would pass.”
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/2299<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fissues%2F2299&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Ca9e85c560b5e4f9cf0bc08da47f4a216%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637901413260341318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZOCouXA8ImH4Uai%2FBenUdD7ERaxfNjNuOU7scewW2oU%3D&reserved=0>

I think that would pass. Not good from a user point of view, but I don't think we can narrow it down to catch those scenarios without creating different issues elsewhere.

The second is:
“Does 3.2.6 Consistent Help allow for content that is under disclosure widget on one page in a set but not another in the same set?
For example, the relative order is the same but on one page you must expand a section for contacting us and on another page it's in the same order but there is no disclosure control - it's just visible.”
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/2303<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fissues%2F2303&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Ca9e85c560b5e4f9cf0bc08da47f4a216%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637901413260341318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TStr4%2F9aX2a9o286WmDJc%2FoKWvLr057MenmbNDB3UxE%3D&reserved=0>

The SC doesn't mention default visibility, so if it's in the same order I think it would pass. I would rather not provide that as an idea for people in the understanding doc though!

There is another issue about providing more examples for “set of web pages”, but that doesn’t impact the SC text.

If those seem like reasonable answers, we should be able to CFC this SC very soon:
https://w3c.github.io/wcag/understanding/consistent-help.html<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fwcag%2Funderstanding%2Fconsistent-help.html&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Ca9e85c560b5e4f9cf0bc08da47f4a216%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637901413260341318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fTpszxK%2F1GipsHxSKW6hfA5A93MeEtKOKgnYVyHKKg0%3D&reserved=0>

Kind regards,

-Alastair

--

@alastc / www.nomensa.com<http://www.nomensa.com>
Received on Monday, 6 June 2022 22:27:12 UTC

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