Re: Possible draft of 3.2.7 - TAKE 2

Gregg,

I love that you are taking a shot at this.

Second Fail for Understanding seems like it would rule out skipnav that
becomes visible on tab...

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 12:26 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
wrote:

> That’s a good point, what would you consider a platform standard /
> convention for the web platform?
>
>
>
> Also, I think there are two different things we are conflating:
>
>
>
>    1. What is a standard way of showing that something is a control.
>    2. What is a standard way of showing that controls will appear on
>    hover/focus.
>
> In the proposal the start of the SC is for 1, but the exceptions are for 2.
>
>
>
> The scenario we were trying to tackle was: When controls are hidden, how
> do you know they are available?
>
>
>
> I think the 1st line would need to be something like:
>
> When user interface components are not displayed until hover or focus,
> there is a *platform* *standard indicator that the components are
> available*, or one of the following is true:
>
>
>
> However, examples like an underline on links do not convey that something
> is available on hover.
>
>
>
> In fact, is there such a convention? The little down-arrows on a menu
> would be, but there are a lot of other interfaces for which I don’t think
> there is a convention.
>
>
>
> I’d love to have a suggestion for that aspect, but I’m really struggling
> with this :-/
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> -Alastair
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, 28 April 2022 at 17:06
> *To: *GLWAI Guidelines WG org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject: *RE: Possible draft of 3.2.7 - TAKE 2
>
> The challenge is in the standard for the platform – is this a platform
> like Windows, Mac, or a browser like Chrome, or Firefox or something else
> like the site, bootstrap, react, or material design? We started with some
> of this several years ago including the borders around button and we had
> pushback that practices like that are not standards today.   That is why
> one of the options we have been discussing is based on consistency for the
> site – is the use of signifiers consistent within a set of pages.  This
> group and a large platform vendor indicated that we could not mandate
> signifiers on buttons and that the text alone is sufficient.  Personally, I
> don’t think text alone is sufficient in some cases as that assumes you can
> find and process each piece of text to understand it’s meaning and whether
> it’s a button or not – but others consider it differently.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> *From:* Gregg Vanderheiden <gregg@raisingthefloor.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2022 11:36 AM
> *To:* Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>
> *Cc:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; GLWAI Guidelines WG org <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Possible draft of 3.2.7 - TAKE 2
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback everyone
>
>
>
> I see your points.   "Visible" is easy     This only asks that it be
> visible - there are no requirements on HOW visible.    (No quality
> requirement)  So anything would pass if visible.
>
>
>
> But asking for a* visual indicator * raises the question of what
> constitutes and 'indicator'
>
>
>
> I changed it and added a definition where we can put an example.
>
>
>
> Here is TAKE 2
>
>  - have a whack at it.
>
> (Criticism alone is great !   Criticism with suggestions is even greater)
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the comments.
>
>
>
>
>
> HERE IS TAKE 2
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Success Criterion 3.2.7 Controls Visible as Controls (Level AA):*
>
> When user interface components are not displayed using* standard control
> presentation formats for the platform* until hover or focus, one of the
> following is true
>
> ·       The same functionality is available through a component on the
> same page, or on a different step in a multi-step process, without
> requiring pointer hover or keyboard focus to make it visible as a control;
>
> ·       A mechanism is available to make the components persistently
> visible as a control;
>
> ·       A mechanism makes controls visible as controls whenever a pointer
> is moved within or over the page, page is clicked anywhere, or keyboard is
> used – and stays visible for at least 3 seconds after movement or keyboard
> operation stops
>
> ·      Instructions on the page make it clear that the item(s) are
> controls and how to activate them
>
> ·       Hiding the visibility of the control as a control is essential to
> the purpose of the page.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *FOR UNDERSTANDING DOC*
>
>
>
>
>
> Examples of problems that fail
>
> ·      Controls are hidden unless the person points directly to the
> control
>
> ·      Page where links are not visible until the person tabs to them
>
>
>
> Examples that pass
>
> ·      Movie where all controls are hidden but show up as soon as mouse
> is moved, person touches the screen anywhere, or the keyboard is used.
>
> ·      Page where links are hidden but show up as soon as mouse or
> keyboard are used within or over the page.
>
> ·      Hidden controls on a listing of emails that appear on hover or
> focus - but also appear at the top of the email if you open the email.
>
>
>
> *FOR DEFINITIONS*
>
>
>
> * standard control presentation formats for the platform*
>
>
>
> Formats that are standard for that platform or generally.
>
>
>
> Examples
>
> - an underline placed below links
>
> - a rounded box appearing around something that functions as a button
>
> - radio buttons for radio buttons
>
> - drop down boxes
>
>
>
> NOTE: controls that might not be recognizable by everyone as a control -
> but are a standard control shape in the industry or for the company (e.g. a
> lone plus sign) are not required to provide any additional indication - but
> one can be provided as a courtesy to new users of a platform or technology.
>
>   Examples of things that are NOT standard control presentation formats
>
> - a picture of something where clicking on parts of the picture get you
> different results  (though this would pass if this was explained on the
> page)
>
> - links that are not visually different from the text around them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 26, 2022, at 10:34 AM, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> “not visually indicated as controls”
>
> What does that mean? You’ve added in *another* point of subjective
> interpretation.
>
>
>
> “until hover or focus, provide a visible indicator”
>
> What constitutes “visible indicator”? This is the existing unresolved issue
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I’ll leave Alastair to run you through the myriad examples we have of how
> difficult it is to reach agreement on these concepts.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Gregg Vanderheiden <gregg@raisingthefloor.org>
> *Date: *Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 9:41 AM
> *To: *w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Possible draft of 3.2.7
>
> This is a rough first draft of an alternative for Success Criterion 3.2.7
> Please anyone send me comments on how to improve this — or problems I
> missed. Thanks Gregg ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
>
> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>
> *This Message Is From an External Sender*
>
> This message came from outside your organization.
>
> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>
> This is a rough first draft of an alternative for Success Criterion 3.2.7
>
>
>
> Please anyone send me comments on how to improve this — or problems I
> missed.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
> ———————————
>
> Gregg Vanderheiden
>
> gregg@vanderheiden.us
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> gregg
>
> ———————————
> Professor, University of Maryland, College Park
> Founder and Director Emeritus , Trace R&D Center, UMD
>
> Co-Founder Raising the Floor. http://raisingthefloor.org
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fraisingthefloor.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cef60e0bbd4494407161308da293112cf%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637867587998429762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=A0Ddc8xYPJq0Zt7oMi7A9gFV1bggD2hbvJlmPrHr9ro%3D&reserved=0>
> The Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure (GPII) http://GPII.net
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgpii.net%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cef60e0bbd4494407161308da293112cf%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637867587998429762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qs0lR6%2FtddPWb5Gz6RiRtOdkfhLGAdAzYuA6aD9kc1Q%3D&reserved=0>
> The Morphic project  https://morphic.org
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmorphic.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cef60e0bbd4494407161308da293112cf%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637867587998429762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Eo2IFexFaw2r5hAOq8b%2BDJd0IkDeV9Afln3R3EA5DCw%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>