Re: Content Usable pronouns and Tal

Thanks, all, for this great discussion!

Note that my aim in providing editorial and structural suggestions in the AGWG survey was to help improve the document, but my “Yes - Publish Make Content Usable” vote was not contingent on applying my suggestions. 

That said, I suggest having at least one pronoun in each narrative (persona and each scenario). Several scenarios currently use their pronoun along with their name, so my suggestion is to apply that approach throughout. For example:

6.9.3 Tal Scenario 3: Filling in a Form to Ask for an Online Journal Article <https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/consistency_checks/content-usable/index.html#tal-scenario-3-filling-in-a-form-to-ask-for-an-online-journal-article>
6.9.4 Tal Scenario 4: Overlooking Important Information <https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/consistency_checks/content-usable/index.html#tal-scenario-4-overlooking-important-information>

These scenarios read well and provide a nice balance between using Tal’s proper noun and their pronouns.

On a side note, I feel bad about having taken up so much time at our last meeting and on the mailing list because of my editorial suggestions in the survey. I will resist providing that type of feedback in AGWG surveys moving forward. 

But clear writing is so important to the success of our work—we need people to understand and engage with the content.

Working group members regularly ask about engaging copyeditors and plain language experts, and often those suggestions are not taken up. Is there any way to provide suggestions outside of AGWG on the editorial aspects of the documents we review? Have we ever had a taskforce or team that focuses on copyediting our documents?

Best,
Sarah


> On Mar 26, 2021, at 2:07 AM, Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I believe we have reasonable consensus in this conversation so far to:
> Keep the current pronoun use in the text
> Add Tal's name as a reference so the preference statement reads:  Tal likes to be referred to as Tal/they/them/theirs
> Add a preference statement to all personas
> We will have limited time on Tuesday so if you disagree with this or if I've misstated anything, please write back to the list with your thoughts.
> 
> Thank you all for the thoughtful conversation so far. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rachael 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:00 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com <mailto:rainb@google.com>> wrote:
> Hello John,
> 
> Thank you again for your thoughtful response.
> 
> From what I'm reading, I think that there is a way to include Tal's persona as intended, while addressing the concerns you raise.
> 
> Looking forward to finding the resolution with the group. 
> 
> Warmly,
> 
> Rain
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 11:35 AM John Foliot <john@foliot.ca <mailto:john@foliot.ca>> wrote:
> Hi Rain
> 
> Regarding tokenism: if we *did* include this pronoun bit for all personas then a) I don't think it would not add that much more to the overall weight of the document, b) it further 'normalizes' that sentence in the context of this document (applied to all), c) which would lead me to be more open to considering Option 3 (cultural issues aside).
> 
> Regarding cultural sensitivity: I totally get your point, and I too want to move the needle for all users with disabilities - I've fought hard for that for many years. I'm just concerned that by drawing attention to the gender issue here that it might dilute or diminish in some way the primary goal: focusing on the needs of users with cognitive issues (no matter what their sexual orientation or gender preference label might be). People can be 'funny'.... you can write 99 positive things, 1 negative thing, and a percentage of readers will all focus on the 1 negative thing, avoiding the 99 positives... I just want to ensure we don't fall victim to that, is all.
> 
> Regarding "inviting me to be an active part of this conversation": Actually, thank YOU! The W3C is made better and stronger via the participation of multiple voices, especially new voices. Like any organization, things at the W3C can slide toward "groupthink" without new and fresh eyes and perspectives, so as an old dog who has been hanging out at the W3C for what seems like forever I for one appreciate your "jumping in with both feet" approach.
> 
> JF
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com <mailto:rainb@google.com>> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> Thank you for the followup questions. 
> 
> Regarding tokenism: this is an excellent point. I know the task force has been working quite hard to keep the document as slim as possible (which is not slim at all), but including this line at the end of each persona introduction may be a reasonable request and feels like a good solution.
> 
> Regarding cultural sensitivity: while I appreciate your concern, I have a few thoughts on this. The individuals coga is most actively trying to include are the most historically unheard and left out. I feel that it is worth including and acknowledging who these individuals are, and I feel that the way this persona is written has a nice subtly that doesn't make it feel like we are forcing cultural change. For those cultural spaces that don't yet have mental space for diverse gender identities, my feeling is that they are more likely to simply read this framing as "unusual" but not put too much more thought into it.
> 
> I also want to add that I'm learning a lot from this conversation, and am very aware that I am new to the group and don't have the same overall background. Thank you for inviting me to be an active part of this conversation.
> Rain
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM John Foliot <john@foliot.ca <mailto:john@foliot.ca>> wrote:
> Hi Rain,
> 
> Thanks for this research!! It is quite interesting.
> 
> As an additional "option" (consideration?), if we *DO* continue to include the statement that Tal prefers to be identified as they/them/their, what if we include this for *all* of the personas: make it a standard bit of information about all of the personas, not just the one. I think that would help a little in reducing my impression of 'tokenism' ("Look, we've got one of those too!" - yes, that comes off as insensitive, and I do not mean it that way - it's simply an observation that it could be interpreted that way). 
> 
> I also continue to be concerned about cultural sensitivity - not every culture is as accepting of gender diversity as our increasingly secular Western society, and I believe we need to be mindful of that as well.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> JF
> 
> (Related: editorial note - the text currently reads "Tal like to be referred to (pronouns) as they/them/theirs" - should it not be "Tal likes to be referred to (pronouns) as Tal/they/them/theirs" - i.e.the addition of the "s" on "like")
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:26 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com <mailto:rainb@google.com>> wrote:
> Hello all, 
> 
> I'm hoping that my comments below don't further complicate or confuse this conversation, but after reading the conversation that followed, I connected directly with a researcher who has done a lot of work around the intersection of cognitive and gender diversity in order to better understand how important it is that we include a non-binary persona.
> 
> This researcher confirmed the following: 
> Choosing to use one's name instead of a pronoun (as Rachael proposed in option 3) is an approach that will be recognized and appreciated by the community we are trying to include, as it is both a personal preference, and also a self-protective preference that offers more subtly.
> There is a higher than average prevalence of individuals with cognitive difference also identifying as non-binary; these individuals are left out in so many ways that it would be a small and positive gesture for us to include them in the Tal persona.
> A good resource to help think of the importance of this single move: Gender Dysphoria and People with Intellectual Disability <http://www.intellectualdisability.info/mental-health/articles/gender-dysphoria-and-people-with-intellectual-disability> 
> Additionally, given the link to the emerging style recommendation from EOWG that Laura referenced <https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases>, and given that we do have many personas, including Tal as a non-binary individual who prefers to be referred to by name feels like an important thing for us to do.
> 
> Rain
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:24 AM Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi Rachael and all,
> 
> I prefer option 1 and 3 combined.
> 
> If specifying pronouns in our personas is going to help to promote
> diversity, equality, and inclusiveness, we should be doing it.
> 
> It seems like the Education & Outreach Working Group (EOWG) may be
> working on persona pronouns for the WAI Style Guide:
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases <https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases>
> 
> Perhaps Shawn may have some guidance for us?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Laura
> 
> On 3/23/21, Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org <mailto:rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Thank you for the thoughtful discussion at today's meeting about the plural
> > pronoun used in Tal. A resource you can read if this is a new area for you
> > is https://www.mypronouns.org/ <https://www.mypronouns.org/>
> >
> > We discussed the following options:
> >
> >    1. no change
> >    2. add it in 1 or 2 places in the main persona
> >    3. Tal like to be referred to (pronouns) as Tal/they/them/theirs
> >    4. change the persona to remove gender diversity
> >    5. use the pronouns as frequently as would be used naturally
> >
> > COGA had voted against 5 because of readability and translatability
> > challenges and compromised with using the minimal pronouns in option 1.  I
> > have created a google document with all of the options at
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/18FabK-X1AgOMPqG2YydOrcyl1d89rHxbcfqso2du1vo/edit# <https://docs.google.com/document/d/18FabK-X1AgOMPqG2YydOrcyl1d89rHxbcfqso2du1vo/edit#>
> >
> > Please take a look and weigh in with your thoughts on how to proceed.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rachael
> > --
> > Rachael Montgomery, PhD
> > Director, Accessible Community
> > rachael@accessiblecommunity.org <mailto:rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>
> >
> > "I will paint this day with laughter;
> > I will frame this night in song."
> >  - Og Mandino
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Laura L. Carlson
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rachael Montgomery, PhD
> Director, Accessible Community
> rachael@accessiblecommunity.org <mailto:rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>
> 
> "I will paint this day with laughter; 
> I will frame this night in song." 
>  - Og Mandino
>