Re: Collections of web pages

Peter asks (some very good questions):

Now, what if instead we had a different format eBook, which didn’t use zip
or any other component-based compression scheme, but which appeared to the
reader to be the same content, presented in the same way, as its ePub
equivalent?  Would that non-ePub eBook also be a “set of web pages”?

I think Peter that part of the problem is that we keep calling them "web
pages": what if, instead we just called them "pages"? In that case, any
collection of "pages" would (by definition) be a "book" (publication?) and
in that case I am simply suggesting that higher-order "collection of..."
requirements are applied to whatever the parent container is called: book,
site, (and perhaps, in the future with XR, "scenes" inside an "instance" -
I don't know the answer to that specific a question today, but you get (I
hope) the idea). I think the critical bit is that alone, the content (page,
screen, scene, whatever) is incomplete at best, and completely unusable at
worst, but by design: it is *intended* to be part of a larger "collection".

I think too that while there has been significant standardization in
digital publishing since the early days (.mobi anyone?), I'd none-the-less
seek some guidance from the W3C Digital Publishing Group on an appropriate
term and perhaps even definition (if they have such a beast). In that
regard, I know Avneesh to be an active member of that group, and welcome
his thoughts - or perhaps he could take it back to that WG for more input?
Perhaps eBook is right, or perhaps there is a better more inclusive term
that we should be using. (Open Question: does 'pagination' have a place
here? i.e. content that relies explicitly - or perhaps even implicitly - on
pagination as part of the delivery process is a "collection" of
pages/screens/contentblocks - and for those collections, 1 of *foo* is
sufficient: findable help, privacy or accessibility policy, etc..)


No matter what, I am personally unhappy with "web page" as a unit of
measurement, and I believe that WCAG 3.0 / Silver is trying to avoid that
narrowly defined container as well.

FWIW

JF

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:06 PM Korn, Peter <pkorn@lab126.com> wrote:

> John, Avneesh,
>
>
>
> If an ePub file/book is, under the covers, a zip file; and if this ePub
> file is a “set of web pages”, then what constitutes an individual web page
> within that set?  Each of the individual files if we were to unzip it?
> Each page (what is a page when screen sizes & font sizes vary so much)?
> Each chapter?
>
>
>
> Now, what if instead we had a different format eBook, which didn’t use zip
> or any other component-based compression scheme, but which appeared to the
> reader to be the same content, presented in the same way, as its ePub
> equivalent?  Would that non-ePub eBook also be a “set of web pages”?
>
>
>
> I’m sorry that I’m coming into this analysis of ePub through the lens of
> WCAG rather late; I know I’ve missed many conversations about this, and I
> appreciate patience as I come up to speed.  Looking through the 3 WCAG 2.1
> SCs that reference “set of Web pages”, I see the following text:
>
>
>
> 2.4.5 Multiple Ways: More than one way is available to locate a Web page
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-web-page-s> within a set of Web pages
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-set-of-web-pages> except where the Web
> Page is the result of, or a step in, a process
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-processes>.
>
> 2.4.8 Location: Information about the user's location within a set of Web
> pages <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-set-of-web-pages> is available.
>
> 3.2.4 Consistent Identification: Components that have the same
> functionality <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-same-functionality>
> within a set of Web pages
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-set-of-web-pages> are identified
> consistently.
>
>
>
> Thinking about the user needs, and translating this into an eBooks, I’d
> think the right approach is something like:
>
>
>
> 2.4.5 Multiple Ways: More than one way is available to locate a *[page?
> Chapter? Section?] of the eBook*.
>
>    (e.g. a TOC, page numbers, section titles in footer)
>
> 2.4.8 Location: Information about the user's location within *the eBook*
> is available.
>
>    (e.g. a page number, %, or other counter)
>
> 3.2.4 Consistent Identification: * Interactive elements* that have the same
> functionality <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-same-functionality>
> within *the eBook* identified consistently.
>
>
>
> This language doesn’t so easily map onto simply re-defining what “web
> page” and “set of web pages” means in an eBook/ePub context, but feels to
> me to do a better job capturing the intent of these SCs and the needs of
> customers with various disabilities in using eBooks.
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
> --
>
> Peter Korn | Director, Accessibility | Amazon Lab126
>
> pkorn@amazon.com
>
>
>
> *From: *Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:43 PM
> *To: *John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>, Bruce Bailey <
> Bailey@access-board.gov>
> *Cc: *Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <
> akirkpat@adobe.com>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, Shawn
> Lauriat <lauriat@google.com>, 508 <508@access-board.gov>
> *Subject: *RE: [EXTERNAL] Collections of web pages
> *Resent-From: *<w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:42 PM
>
>
>
> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 8, 2020 23:09
>
> *To:* Bruce Bailey
>
> *Cc:* Alastair Campbell ; Andrew Kirkpatrick ; WCAG list (
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) ; Shawn Lauriat ; 508
>
> *Subject:* Re: Collections of web pages
>
>
>
> Bruce writes:
>
>
>
> > I am arguing that we make the same common sense leap for ePub and WCAG
> 2.2.  A typical ePub, posted online as a zip file, is a set of web pages,
> full stop.
>
>
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Avneesh: +1
>
> EPUB is set of HTML pages in form of files properly arranged in zip
> container.
>
>
>
> An E-Pub (Electronic Publication) is a singular unit that comprises
> multiple screens or views, but is traditionally thought-of as a single and
> complete entity.
>
> It traditionally also has a single table-of-contents, which I will argue
> also suggests to me that a single "findable help" would be (in context)
> appropriate. This is not to say that
> content creators cannot *also* provide contextual help in the 'footer' of
> each e-pub document if desired, only that it would not be mandated to do so.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 12:06 PM Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Alastair for kicking off this discussion.  CC’ing John Foliot since
> he has some strong opinions about this.  CC’ing Shawn Lauriat because he
> has articulated how our current definition of web page does not stand up to
> technical scrutiny.
>
>
>
> Forgive me, but I will remind folks that in 2006 the WG though we needed a
> new term, “web unit”.  The good old bad old days!
>
> www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-WCAG20-20060427/appendixA.html#webunitdef
>
>
>
> Can we agree that there is a certain amount of hand waving required with
> our current definition of web page?
>
>
>
> I agree that a typical PDF file is a web page.
>
> I agree that a PDF collection could be posted in a way that it is a set of
> web pages.  I pretty confident we can agree it is not typical.  For this
> discussion, I would really rather we not spend cycles talking about PDFs.
>
>
>
> I disagree that posting a .zip file (or similar archive of a collection)
> has any meaningful implication to our discussion of web page or set of web
> pages.  Yes, files posted online have a URI.  Not every URI is a web page!
>
>
>
> If one archives a set of web pages into a single zip file (and posts the
> zip online), it would be nonsensical to assert that the URI is now a web
> page and no longer a set of web pages.
>
>
>
> I am arguing that we make the same common sense leap for ePub and WCAG
> 2.2.  A typical ePub, posted online as a zip file, is a set of web pages,
> full stop.
>
>
>
> I admit that my argument is not in the shape of good formal logic.  I
> would ask that anyone who disagrees (than an ePub is a set of web pages)
> make a recommendation to how our definition of web page and set of web page
> might be tweaked (so that they would agree that an ePub meets their
> modified definition for set of web pages).
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:42 AM
> *To:* Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>; Bruce Bailey
> <Bailey@Access-Board.gov>
> *Cc:* WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Collections of web pages
>
>
>
> Hi Andrew, Bruce & everyone,
>
>
>
> During the discussion of two criteria (at least), the concept of “set of
> web pages” came up as a key point.
>
>
>
> ·  Findable help: Including ‘set of web pages’ helps to scope-out the
> very simple one-page websites and *PDFs* that are less likely to have
> human contact details.
>
> ·  Fixed reference points: It says “a web page or set of web pages" so
> that it covers ePub and non-ePub files .
>
>
>
> Andrew mentioned that long PDFs could be considered a ‘set of web pages’,
> and that some PDFs techniques mention that.
>
>
>
> As far as I can tell from our definition for a web page
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23dfn-web-page-s&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475002609&sdata=gHYOWONUhzMRcA04Vv1eJhLF1DSlhV93bdnPX6QIfnA%3D&reserved=0>
> and set of web pages
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23dfn-set-of-web-pages&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475012600&sdata=yFqJ7fz4UUlIGWgKiP%2F3wSjXdWjAUavo%2F3lEdu%2B7xHI%3D&reserved=0>,
> all of these would be considered a ‘web page’ as they are located at a
> single URI:
>
> ·         A PDF;
>
> ·         An ePub document;
>
> ·         A ‘single page app’, unless it adjusts the URI & browser
> history to appear to have multiple pages.
>
>
>
> I can’t see a reference to ‘set of web pages’ in the PDF techniques
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG20-TECHS%2Fpdf%23PDF2&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475022599&sdata=l675wkH%2FdAOI%2BCs1gXjVqCzW%2FzcR%2FBdfolGwFJ96iNs%3D&reserved=0>,
> the closest is PDF2 but that doesn’t seem to reference the definition
> directly.
>
>
>
> Can anyone see an issue with the uses of “set of web pages” in these two
> SCs?
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> -Alastair
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> www.nomensa.com
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomensa.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475032595&sdata=DG90CpyZ1cu8b9ZXKK5ZbRRWtRJ4U5d%2FHjqqhuwLuVo%3D&reserved=0>
> / @alastc
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *​**John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC
> Representative
> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
> deque.com
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
*​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com