Re: Using preformatted text or excluding preformatting text as an exception to no two dimensional scrolling as failure for Reflow 1.4.10

Hi All,
Here is the problem with pre in fact any "fixed format" text. It is
unreadable in large print.

There are some cases where the lines are so short that 400% enlargement
will work, but that would be a rediulus limit on pages.

A good example of a poetic format is
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/macbeth/full.html. It does not use pre. Note how
well the dialog of the first witch, first occurance, wraps and is
consistent with the page indentation. This behaviour is beyond pre
formatting. Imagine how difficult it would be to read the page if it was in
pre formatting at 400% enlargement.

The reflow criteria is pretty clear on when 2-d scrolling is permitted: Except
for parts of the content which require two-dimensional layout for usage or
meaning.

The Macbeth example preserves the poetic format with indent-preserving word
wrap and no meaning is lost.

A similar indent preserving format is also good for code.

I really do wonder if there are any good uses of preformatting.

Best, Wayne



On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:48 AM John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote:

> Hi Wayne,
>
> > It certainly would be nice to enable young students of computer science
> with low vision to read code examples in books.
>
> No disagreement there. I'll fine-tune my response by saying that for a
> 'rule' like that, there would have to be an exception for when the
> formatting of the text is crucial to the understanding (or in the case of
> some code examples, perhaps functionality of the content , or because of
> the desire to convey the structure indicated according to the conventions
> of that language.) In some IDE's, adding a carriage return is the
> equivalent of adding a white-space, which potentially could break some
> code examples
> <http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20001206164827794>, so
> again, the decision to wrap (or not wrap) code examples with <pre> needs to
> be an informed decision, and not just a blanket declaration that all <pre>
> formatted text = failure (which is what I understood Patrick to be
> suggesting).
>
> As an educator, I'd want to ensure that low vision CS students learned
> those code conventions as well, as (presumably) they will one day find
> themselves dealing with real production code written with those very same
> conventions, so it's a bit of a balancing act, no?
>
> JF
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 12:06 PM Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It certainly would be nice to enable young students of computer science
>> with low vision to read code examples in books.
>>
>> Each time I read an O'Reilly book I have to cut out the code and pull it
>> into an IDE with word wrapping. It is a very slow process.
>>
>> There seems to be no standards for formatting PRE content. Each publisher
>> tends to have a format, but there are no standards that would permit
>> reliable parsing.
>>
>> Best, Wayne
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 9:49 AM John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ...and this is why I so dislike Failure Techniques...
>>>
>>> > I'm guessing the failure per se is the use of preformatted text,
>>>
>>>
>>> We cannot do this or say this as broadly as that. There are many
>>> instances where pre-formatted text would be required (the most common
>>> use-case being poetry).
>>>
>>> Haiku:
>>>
>>> The summer river:
>>> although there is a bridge, my horse
>>> goes through the water.
>>>
>>> Example of a Robert Service
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Service> poem
>>> <https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45081/the-cremation-of-sam-mcgee>
>>> :
>>>
>>> On a Christmas Day we were mushing our way over the Dawson trail.
>>> Talk of your cold! through the parka's fold it stabbed like a driven
>>> nail.
>>> If our eyes we'd close, then the lashes froze till sometimes we couldn't
>>> see;
>>> It wasn't much fun, but the only one to whimper was Sam McGee.
>>>
>>> In these examples, the formatting of the text also conveys the Pentameter
>>> <https://literarydevices.net/pentameter/>of the rhymes/poems. Conveying
>>> this critical literary device is wholly dependent on the formatting of the
>>> text.
>>>
>>> JF
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:33 AM Joshue O Connor - InterAccess <
>>> josh@interaccess.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 29/01/2019 14:30, Joshue O Connor - InterAccess wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Is there any progress on the potential Failure "Using preformatted text
>>>> or excluding preformatting text as an exception to no two dimensional
>>>> scrolling". [1]
>>>>
>>>> I find this really difficult to parse - can anyone explain the thinking
>>>> behind this one to me please?
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/reflow.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing the failure per se is the use of preformatted text, with
>>>> the addition of wrongly thinking that it might be something that's valid to
>>>> exclude as being required to reflow? And that in the end, the failure will
>>>> be retitled to just "Using preformatted text" with a clear indication in
>>>> the prose of the failure that no, it doesn't count automatically as an
>>>> exemption?
>>>>
>>>> Go you.. I'm still confused but somewhat reassured that someone I know
>>>> does understand it :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joshue O Connor
>>>> Director | InterAccess.ie
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC
>>> Representative
>>> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
>>> deque.com
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> *​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC
> Representative
> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
> deque.com
>
>