Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?

Let's add the techniques for
- Using the esc key to dismiss popup
- Using the context menu to dismiss popup

Cheers,
David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

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On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:31 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> Scratch that, I can live with it.
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> twitter.com/davidmacd
>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
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> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
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> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:31 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> It's better Steve but I still think we have to address
>>
>> I still don't understand "without moving pointer hover" ... even if
>> access the pointer context menu isn't there is a small movement of the
>> pointer?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>
>> LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>
>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>
>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>> *            Including those with disabilities*
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>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
>> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>
>>> To clarify, I never said that the tabs weren’t focusable, just that the
>>> content wasn’t becoming visible on focus.  In retrospect, being technically
>>> astute might lead us to look at the underlying JavaScript to see if the
>>> code to display the additional content was occurring onfocus() or maybe
>>> onkeypress().  As Brooks is saying though, it really doesn’t matter whether
>>> we come to an agreement on that if we can agree on a simple change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I propose simply adding back in the part about obscuring other content
>>> and moving on, so the Dismissable condition would then read:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “A mechanism is available to dismiss the additional content without
>>> moving pointer hover or keyboard focus, unless the additional content
>>> communicates an input error or does not obscure other content;”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any objections to that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com [mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonr
>>> euters.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:04 PM
>>> *To:* david100@sympatico.ca; jon.avila@levelaccess.com
>>> *Cc:* Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>;
>>> akirkpat@adobe.com; jjwhite@ets.org; melanie.philipp@deque.com;
>>> acampbell@nomensa.com; Jake.Abma@ing.nl; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>> *Subject:* RE: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
>>> interfaces?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> +1 to Jonathan’s and David’s perspective on this.  I agree with them.
>>> I’m also right in the middle of documenting, implementing and testing this
>>> design pattern, so the hair splitting semantic exercise of what is change
>>> in focus versus what is a change in selection means less to me than the
>>> practical implications of observing new content display upon pressing arrow
>>> keys, not space or enter, as the ARIA Authoring Practices 1.1
>>> recommends (automatic activation)
>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#tabpanel>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brooks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca
>>> <david100@sympatico.ca>]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:53 PM
>>> *To:* Jonathan Avila
>>> *Cc:* Repsher, Stephen J; Andrew Kirkpatrick; White, Jason J; Melanie
>>> Philipp; Alastair Campbell; Abma, J.D. (Jake); WCAG
>>> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
>>> interfaces?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have to confess... I've never made that distinction that if you move
>>> to an actionable control with an arrow key rather than a tab key it is not
>>> a focusable element.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there anywhere official you can point me (and Jonathan) to that makes
>>> that distinction.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>>
>>> LinkedIn
>>>
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_davidmacdonald100&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=Nbi9AH0h8-L9CLAwMuLUNGEvS5hc407lzLtgJbUIqdQ&e=>
>>>
>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_davidmacd&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=WNU0Ie8nmNbq8CwcW1pqIbwToGoatG5UUeYDrcCd4jw&e=>
>>>
>>> GitHub
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_DavidMacDonald&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=ids073a6Zh19lECDL642TLje1Fc8AADGFK4xVFUTod0&e=>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Avila <
>>> jon.avila@levelaccess.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In my opinion switching between tabs with arrow keys is changing focus
>>> and selection.   Just as moving up and down in an ARIA combo box with pop
>>> up list that takes focus moves both selection and focus.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
>>> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ll try to reply to various comments throughout this thread…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> First, it is unclear to me from issue #650 whether or not the commenter
>>> is talking about true tabbed interfaces, or simply menus that respond to
>>> tabbing.  However, it doesn’t really matter what the UI component actually
>>> is but rather how it functions using a keyboard or pointer.  If stuff
>>> appears on focus or hover, then it applies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With regard to the applicability to tabbed interfaces (i.e.
>>> role=”tab”)…The answer depends on how the keyboard and pointer interactions
>>> are implemented.  Taking the ARIA Authoring Practices example, Andrew is
>>> correct in saying that the SC is not applicable because keyboard focus on
>>> the tab is not what makes its associated tabpanel appear.  The tablist
>>> receives focus and simply transfers it to the currently displayed tab, then
>>> the next focusable element is the tabpanel.  There are only 2 ways to make
>>> the “additional” tab panel content appear:
>>>
>>> 1.       Click the tab with the pointer, or
>>>
>>> 2.       Move focus into the tablist, then use the arrow keys to select
>>> a new tab.  This is functionally equivalent to a <select> which displays
>>> different content onblur or on selection.
>>>
>>> Thus, there is no real applicability for the SC in this example.  And
>>> furthermore, most tabs that I experience pretty much use an onclick()
>>> approach since it’s the easiest way to also be mobile-friendly, so there’s
>>> no applicability for most tabs in the wild either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, could the SC apply to a tabbed interface?  Yes, certainly, but only
>>> if it truly works on just hover and/or focus, and that would be a horrible
>>> user experience for everyone in most tab applications.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m happy to add some stuff to the Understanding discussing tabs to
>>> reflect all this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With regard to defining “additional content”… I view this as already
>>> defined by the SC language itself, i.e. anything that requires an element
>>> to be focused or hovered before it becomes visible is the additional
>>> content.  Referring to it as “additional” is nothing more than a
>>> convenience so that it is clear what is being talked about in the 3
>>> conditions and has no other meaning beyond that.  I think the Understanding
>>> already makes this clear.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With regard to going back to popup, popover, or scoping to “overlay”…
>>> This was extremely confusing for many folks even with a clear definition,
>>> and that definition would need to scope it to the same content as is now,
>>> so I do not agree with going back down that winding road.  Moreover,
>>> scoping to only overlays misses the point of the Hoverable and Persistent
>>> conditions, i.e. those conditions are there to assist with viewing and
>>> operating the additional content and it’s irrelevant whether or not
>>> anything else is being obscured.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With regard to the general notion of additional content that is not
>>> overlaying or obscuring anything else... I originally had this in the
>>> Dismissable bullet, but the working group discussed it and decided to
>>> remove it.  That is, it originally read: “..., unless the additional
>>> content communicates an input error or does not obscure any other
>>> content.”  I’m fine with adding that back in if the group feels it is
>>> important, but that seems irrelevant to issue #650.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com
>>> <akirkpat@adobe.com>]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 9:13 AM
>>> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; White, Jason J <
>>> jjwhite@ets.org>
>>> *Cc:* Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>; Alastair Campbell <
>>> acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <
>>> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
>>> interfaces?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Would be good to hear from Steve about David’s last question (“without
>>> moving the pointer”)…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> AWK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>
>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>>>
>>> Adobe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> akirkpat@adobe.com
>>>
>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_awkawk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=to005lQrySSY5XSL3I4GUu2hMQD9TW2J7iSMxEqkRAI&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:09
>>> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>> *Cc: *Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>, Alastair Campbell <
>>> acampbell@nomensa.com>, "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>, WCAG <
>>> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
>>> interfaces?
>>> *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:06
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with going back to using popup, or something similar and then
>>> defining it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For me, "overlay" makes me think of a light box, dialogue box etc.,
>>> which is not generally a hover based popup... but could live with it if
>>> it's defined or clear in another way the the SC is not talking about those
>>> things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also hope we address the first bullet regarding closing the popup
>>> "without moving the pointer". The pointer can't do anything without moving,
>>> can it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>>
>>> LinkedIn
>>>
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.linkedin.com-252Fin-252Fdavidmacdonald100-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DRXjoK-252BQSrASybKHpuekjkWn8gCASZXRhmtskbWEecAE-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=tGzPMSSo2S0ETOLJmWKAVPjaE711NbbLW5SZSEIKhyE&e=>
>>>
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>>>
>>> GitHub
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fgithub.com-252FDavidMacDonald-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DR9guICJvEtWHXiOrw7pHEZsN7hGJKEMGDg-252B57iQtKdE-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=lV70WkwWjDbKS10iz9-4iG6oJZHY5f_PVeUhuLl73gw&e=>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
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>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.davidmacd.com-252Fdisclaimer.html-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DyFSCmytaEgts7eziLkG2UoY2g1sKhfg2r-252F8htWTUvvg-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=EW_YklH0jdiQr25vMV38Cs99vqtZxZ8RFJu_Xneqwck&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:53 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we should explore this option to see whether it covers the
>>> desired cases – and only them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Melanie Philipp [mailto:melanie.philipp@deque.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 8:35 AM
>>> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>> *Cc:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <
>>> Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <
>>> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
>>> interfaces?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you explore the word "overlay"? As in:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "When pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers additional content* that
>>> overlays other content*, the following are true:"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps no new definition would be required with this approach.
>>>
>>>
>>> Melanie Philipp, CPACC, WAS
>>> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
>>> 540-848-5220 <(540)%20848-5220>
>>> www.deque.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.deque.com-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cjjwhite-2540ets.org-257Ce8e6783165f245ebfec608d55765cf55-257C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65-257C0-257C0-257C636511017148326835-26sdata-3Dl5ZDl1U-252BmyHTTmbDvxEhoE1kpRrgVYmZupozmjm7gWM-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=TfjnkSdDZVyJUExgZOB2JyWseJg_K3bzZ50d5yStEMU&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:59 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 5:00 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree it would help to have something like ‘pop-over’ as the target of
>>> the SC. I’m fairly sure we did at one stage, Steve (CCed) might be able to
>>> remember why we dropped that?
>>>
>>> *[Jason] The term was used (with disagreement about whether it should be
>>> “popup” or “popover”), but I don’t recall there being a definition. It was
>>> relatively uncontroversial, as I recall, that these terms did not have a
>>> generally accepted meaning that was clear or precise enough to meet our
>>> testability requirements.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Received on Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:33:33 UTC