- From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
- Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 16:31:54 -0500
- To: "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
- Cc: "Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com" <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>, "jon.avila@levelaccess.com" <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, "akirkpat@adobe.com" <akirkpat@adobe.com>, "jjwhite@ets.org" <jjwhite@ets.org>, "melanie.philipp@deque.com" <melanie.philipp@deque.com>, "acampbell@nomensa.com" <acampbell@nomensa.com>, "Jake.Abma@ing.nl" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAAdDpDbye=k4iuWaGA0qjTuBtGT11bUHp_h1WachUus_cimx0g@mail.gmail.com>
Scratch that, I can live with it. Cheers, David MacDonald *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* Tel: 613.235.4902 LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> twitter.com/davidmacd GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> * Adapting the web to all users* * Including those with disabilities* If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:31 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote: > It's better Steve but I still think we have to address > > I still don't understand "without moving pointer hover" ... even if access > the pointer context menu isn't there is a small movement of the pointer? > > Cheers, > David MacDonald > > > > *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* > > Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> > > LinkedIn > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> > > twitter.com/davidmacd > > GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> > > www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> > > > > * Adapting the web to all users* > * Including those with disabilities* > > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy > <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Repsher, Stephen J < > stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote: > >> To clarify, I never said that the tabs weren’t focusable, just that the >> content wasn’t becoming visible on focus. In retrospect, being technically >> astute might lead us to look at the underlying JavaScript to see if the >> code to display the additional content was occurring onfocus() or maybe >> onkeypress(). As Brooks is saying though, it really doesn’t matter whether >> we come to an agreement on that if we can agree on a simple change. >> >> >> >> I propose simply adding back in the part about obscuring other content >> and moving on, so the Dismissable condition would then read: >> >> >> >> “A mechanism is available to dismiss the additional content without >> moving pointer hover or keyboard focus, unless the additional content >> communicates an input error or does not obscure other content;” >> >> >> >> Any objections to that? >> >> >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> *From:* Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com [mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonr >> euters.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:04 PM >> *To:* david100@sympatico.ca; jon.avila@levelaccess.com >> *Cc:* Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; >> akirkpat@adobe.com; jjwhite@ets.org; melanie.philipp@deque.com; >> acampbell@nomensa.com; Jake.Abma@ing.nl; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org >> *Subject:* RE: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed >> interfaces? >> >> >> >> +1 to Jonathan’s and David’s perspective on this. I agree with them. >> I’m also right in the middle of documenting, implementing and testing this >> design pattern, so the hair splitting semantic exercise of what is change >> in focus versus what is a change in selection means less to me than the >> practical implications of observing new content display upon pressing arrow >> keys, not space or enter, as the ARIA Authoring Practices 1.1 recommends >> (automatic activation) >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#tabpanel>. >> >> >> >> Brooks >> >> >> >> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca >> <david100@sympatico.ca>] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:53 PM >> *To:* Jonathan Avila >> *Cc:* Repsher, Stephen J; Andrew Kirkpatrick; White, Jason J; Melanie >> Philipp; Alastair Campbell; Abma, J.D. (Jake); WCAG >> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed >> interfaces? >> >> >> >> Hi Steve >> >> >> >> I have to confess... I've never made that distinction that if you move to >> an actionable control with an arrow key rather than a tab key it is not a >> focusable element. >> >> >> >> Is there anywhere official you can point me (and Jonathan) to that makes >> that distinction. >> >> >> Cheers, >> David MacDonald >> >> >> >> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* >> >> Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> >> >> LinkedIn >> >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_davidmacdonald100&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=Nbi9AH0h8-L9CLAwMuLUNGEvS5hc407lzLtgJbUIqdQ&e=> >> >> twitter.com/davidmacd >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_davidmacd&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=WNU0Ie8nmNbq8CwcW1pqIbwToGoatG5UUeYDrcCd4jw&e=> >> >> GitHub >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_DavidMacDonald&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=ids073a6Zh19lECDL642TLje1Fc8AADGFK4xVFUTod0&e=> >> >> www.Can-Adapt.com >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.can-2Dadapt.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=Md-AXeyAZZdsesDVd95A0-TK2Dy4eoL3cnqaG6U6dv0&e=> >> >> >> >> * Adapting the web to all users* >> >> * Including those with disabilities* >> >> >> >> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.davidmacd.com_disclaimer.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=M-UFUfp1G7Q68X1-qzhOyEKAxpAUyON3Pko5NlyvZjE&e=> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com> >> wrote: >> >> In my opinion switching between tabs with arrow keys is changing focus >> and selection. Just as moving up and down in an ARIA combo box with pop >> up list that takes focus moves both selection and focus. >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Repsher, Stephen J < >> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote: >> >> I’ll try to reply to various comments throughout this thread… >> >> >> >> First, it is unclear to me from issue #650 whether or not the commenter >> is talking about true tabbed interfaces, or simply menus that respond to >> tabbing. However, it doesn’t really matter what the UI component actually >> is but rather how it functions using a keyboard or pointer. If stuff >> appears on focus or hover, then it applies. >> >> >> >> With regard to the applicability to tabbed interfaces (i.e. >> role=”tab”)…The answer depends on how the keyboard and pointer interactions >> are implemented. Taking the ARIA Authoring Practices example, Andrew is >> correct in saying that the SC is not applicable because keyboard focus on >> the tab is not what makes its associated tabpanel appear. The tablist >> receives focus and simply transfers it to the currently displayed tab, then >> the next focusable element is the tabpanel. There are only 2 ways to make >> the “additional” tab panel content appear: >> >> 1. Click the tab with the pointer, or >> >> 2. Move focus into the tablist, then use the arrow keys to select >> a new tab. This is functionally equivalent to a <select> which displays >> different content onblur or on selection. >> >> Thus, there is no real applicability for the SC in this example. And >> furthermore, most tabs that I experience pretty much use an onclick() >> approach since it’s the easiest way to also be mobile-friendly, so there’s >> no applicability for most tabs in the wild either. >> >> >> >> So, could the SC apply to a tabbed interface? Yes, certainly, but only >> if it truly works on just hover and/or focus, and that would be a horrible >> user experience for everyone in most tab applications. >> >> >> >> I’m happy to add some stuff to the Understanding discussing tabs to >> reflect all this. >> >> >> >> With regard to defining “additional content”… I view this as already >> defined by the SC language itself, i.e. anything that requires an element >> to be focused or hovered before it becomes visible is the additional >> content. Referring to it as “additional” is nothing more than a >> convenience so that it is clear what is being talked about in the 3 >> conditions and has no other meaning beyond that. I think the Understanding >> already makes this clear. >> >> >> >> With regard to going back to popup, popover, or scoping to “overlay”… >> This was extremely confusing for many folks even with a clear definition, >> and that definition would need to scope it to the same content as is now, >> so I do not agree with going back down that winding road. Moreover, >> scoping to only overlays misses the point of the Hoverable and Persistent >> conditions, i.e. those conditions are there to assist with viewing and >> operating the additional content and it’s irrelevant whether or not >> anything else is being obscured. >> >> >> >> With regard to the general notion of additional content that is not >> overlaying or obscuring anything else... I originally had this in the >> Dismissable bullet, but the working group discussed it and decided to >> remove it. That is, it originally read: “..., unless the additional >> content communicates an input error or does not obscure any other >> content.” I’m fine with adding that back in if the group feels it is >> important, but that seems irrelevant to issue #650. >> >> >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com >> <akirkpat@adobe.com>] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 9:13 AM >> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; White, Jason J < >> jjwhite@ets.org> >> *Cc:* Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>; Alastair Campbell < >> acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG < >> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> >> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed >> interfaces? >> >> >> >> Would be good to hear from Steve about David’s last question (“without >> moving the pointer”)… >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> AWK >> >> >> >> Andrew Kirkpatrick >> >> Group Product Manager, Accessibility >> >> Adobe >> >> >> >> akirkpat@adobe.com >> >> http://twitter.com/awkawk >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_awkawk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=to005lQrySSY5XSL3I4GUu2hMQD9TW2J7iSMxEqkRAI&e=> >> >> >> >> *From: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> >> *Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:09 >> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org> >> *Cc: *Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>, Alastair Campbell < >> acampbell@nomensa.com>, "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>, WCAG < >> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> >> *Subject: *Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed >> interfaces? >> *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:06 >> >> >> >> I agree with going back to using popup, or something similar and then >> defining it. >> >> >> >> For me, "overlay" makes me think of a light box, dialogue box etc., which >> is not generally a hover based popup... but could live with it if it's >> defined or clear in another way the the SC is not talking about those >> things. >> >> >> >> I also hope we address the first bullet regarding closing the popup >> "without moving the pointer". The pointer can't do anything without moving, >> can it? >> >> >> Cheers, >> David MacDonald >> >> >> >> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* >> >> Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> >> >> LinkedIn >> >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.linkedin.com-252Fin-252Fdavidmacdonald100-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DRXjoK-252BQSrASybKHpuekjkWn8gCASZXRhmtskbWEecAE-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=tGzPMSSo2S0ETOLJmWKAVPjaE711NbbLW5SZSEIKhyE&e=> >> >> twitter.com/davidmacd >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftwitter.com-252Fdavidmacd-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DVFyQOEHH4rswqjT4fAxYx1Nq1-252FRuiLRgySJXsm8Lvjw-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=fJ44Y833xTP42ilv2PHSS6XVl0-8ZNzEYGKviYRDUbE&e=> >> >> GitHub >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fgithub.com-252FDavidMacDonald-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DR9guICJvEtWHXiOrw7pHEZsN7hGJKEMGDg-252B57iQtKdE-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=lV70WkwWjDbKS10iz9-4iG6oJZHY5f_PVeUhuLl73gw&e=> >> >> www.Can-Adapt.com >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.can-2Dadapt.com-252F-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3Dy-252Fl-252B-252BjyVXSsCqz9C4HEh-252B-252FdINxl-252FupDQs2s-252FQfgEYoI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=Ll-DxOrHxMnLgvRkX5y39P49x38ZHwReEwirBLWLZiM&e=> >> >> >> >> * Adapting the web to all users* >> >> * Including those with disabilities* >> >> >> >> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.davidmacd.com-252Fdisclaimer.html-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C1b834c3267a1401141d408d5576aa824-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636511037986556013-26sdata-3DyFSCmytaEgts7eziLkG2UoY2g1sKhfg2r-252F8htWTUvvg-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=EW_YklH0jdiQr25vMV38Cs99vqtZxZ8RFJu_Xneqwck&e=> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:53 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote: >> >> I think we should explore this option to see whether it covers the >> desired cases – and only them. >> >> >> >> *From:* Melanie Philipp [mailto:melanie.philipp@deque.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 8:35 AM >> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> >> *Cc:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) < >> Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J < >> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> >> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed >> interfaces? >> >> >> >> Did you explore the word "overlay"? As in: >> >> >> >> "When pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers additional content* that >> overlays other content*, the following are true:" >> >> >> >> Perhaps no new definition would be required with this approach. >> >> >> Melanie Philipp, CPACC, WAS >> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant >> 540-848-5220 <(540)%20848-5220> >> www.deque.com >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.deque.com-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cjjwhite-2540ets.org-257Ce8e6783165f245ebfec608d55765cf55-257C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65-257C0-257C0-257C636511017148326835-26sdata-3Dl5ZDl1U-252BmyHTTmbDvxEhoE1kpRrgVYmZupozmjm7gWM-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=b6IWd9VqSikzWprNOkpuQlpIv7mFCD-lhxld_Nmh13k&s=TfjnkSdDZVyJUExgZOB2JyWseJg_K3bzZ50d5yStEMU&e=> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:59 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 5:00 AM >> >> >> >> I agree it would help to have something like ‘pop-over’ as the target of >> the SC. I’m fairly sure we did at one stage, Steve (CCed) might be able to >> remember why we dropped that? >> >> *[Jason] The term was used (with disagreement about whether it should be >> “popup” or “popover”), but I don’t recall there being a definition. It was >> relatively uncontroversial, as I recall, that these terms did not have a >> generally accepted meaning that was clear or precise enough to meet our >> testability requirements.* >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged or >> confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual for whom >> it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received this e-mail >> in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy, distribute, or >> take any action in reliance on the contents of this information; and delete >> it from your system. Any other use of this e-mail is prohibited. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your compliance. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged or >> confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual for whom >> it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received this e-mail >> in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy, distribute, or >> take any action in reliance on the contents of this information; and delete >> it from your system. Any other use of this e-mail is prohibited. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your compliance. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> > >
Received on Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:32:23 UTC