- From: Sailesh Panchang <sailesh.panchang@deque.com>
- Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 09:50:31 -0500
- To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
- Cc: "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
I do not see how this is different in essence from what was part of the previous version of the proposed SC. Why are status messages (or alerts) for that matter being singled out for PD requirement which is alreagy dovered by SC 1.3.1? When such an update happens dynamically and is discernible visually because of its presentation (positioning / styling) it is covered by SC 1.3.1 and needs to be PD. By assigning a role or property what is being accomplished? In the absence of a native HTML tag, the role or property is conveying the semantics that will permit UA/AT to do their job. It is moot to argue this was not intended by SC 1.3.1 when drafted in 2008. This situation of "new content" conveying info was prevalent even before 2008 with DHTML updates to convent. My reasoning for applying SC 1.3.1 to "status updates" as proposed now is not an unreasonable interpretation of SC 1.3.1. I have suggested this interpretation multiple times including via recent posts to issues 539 and 544. No one has pointed to a fallacy in such reasoning. In some situations some changes may be conveyed by alerts of dialogs requiring focus change, so it is not alright to require that all status changes must be conveyed without moving focus. Depending on the situation, one needs to apply one of the other WCAG 2.0 SCs. WCAG 2.0 references terms like "role" way before ARIA became a recommendation and before ARIA was supported by browsers / AT. So maybe one needs to discount the thought stated in issue 544 that "Much of our vocabulary is based on ARIA, and thus not technology independent". ARIA offers a method to bridge a gap in mark up language like HTML but the core SC 1.3.1 mandate is applicable across technologies. The status change proposed SC does not say whether the updates are due to user action or otherwise. the articles referenced in issue 539 explain how the updates are already covered in both situations. And as highlighted before, this SC will proclaim in no uncertain terms that such changes do not made to be made PD or otherwise accessible if the goal is to meet WCAG 2.0 ... and not WCAG 2.1. I am also trying to locate a document that lists gaps in WCAG 2.0 which the new WCAG 2.1 is attempting to resolve. I would like to see an item in that list that says such status changes as proposed by this SC are not covered by WCAG 2.0. Thanks and best regards, On 12/1/17, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> Between now and CR we can do a little research on how this might be > accomplished without ARIA. > > > > It can't be done through "roles and properties" in any other language but > markup... > > > Cheers, > David MacDonald > > > > *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* > > Tel: 613.235.4902 > > LinkedIn > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> > > twitter.com/davidmacd > > GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> > > www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> > > > > * Adapting the web to all users* > * Including those with disabilities* > > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy > <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> > > On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Repsher, Stephen J < > stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote: > >> I’m fine with that, and I’m assuming others would agree so I made the >> change in the branch. Between now and CR we can do a little research on >> how this might be accomplished without ARIA. >> >> >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com] >> *Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 10:06 AM >> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; Michael Gower < >> michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> >> >> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Subject:* Re: Latest version of Change of Content (now called Status >> Changes) >> >> >> >> In seeing the latest language and having a chance to confer with others >> within Adobe about this, I think that it is fair to say that this is >> pretty >> specifically targeted to HTML/ARIA at present. I am happy to support it, >> but only if we can add “in content implemented using markup languages” to >> make it read: >> >> >> >> “In content implemented using markup languages, status messages can be >> programmatically determined through role or properties such that they can >> be presented to the user by assistive technologies without receiving >> focus.” >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> AWK >> >> >> >> Andrew Kirkpatrick >> >> Group Product Manager, Accessibility >> >> Adobe >> >> >> >> akirkpat@adobe.com >> >> http://twitter.com/awkawk >> >> >> >> *From: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> >> *Date: *Friday, December 1, 2017 at 09:44 >> *To: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, Michael Gower < >> michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> >> *Cc: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Subject: *Re: Latest version of Change of Content (now called Status >> Changes) >> *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Resent-Date: *Friday, December 1, 2017 at 09:42 >> >> >> >> Thanks David. People can view this at http://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/ >> status-changes/guidelines/index.html#status-changes >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fstatus-changes%2Fguidelines%2Findex.html%23status-changes&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7C716a488e1ebd4595035708d538c9f5ef%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477362417933872&sdata=8e%2BXezSO0M%2BcrHkI5ptvNoGuBFSgPGlWUkx771gWhsE%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> What do people think? Go to CFC or not yet? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> AWK >> >> >> >> Andrew Kirkpatrick >> >> Group Product Manager, Accessibility >> >> Adobe >> >> >> >> akirkpat@adobe.com >> >> http://twitter.com/awkawk >> >> >> >> *From: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> >> *Date: *Friday, December 1, 2017 at 09:37 >> *To: *Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> >> *Cc: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Subject: *Re: Latest version of Change of Content (now called Status >> Changes) >> *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Resent-Date: *Friday, December 1, 2017 at 09:36 >> >> >> >> The Pull request is >> >> >> >> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/594 >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fpull%2F594&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=qLAkXHdqry9leQP0iodhFGnl2NkhzWrCHICPF4n9GIM%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> David MacDonald >> >> >> >> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* >> >> Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> >> >> LinkedIn >> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdavidmacdonald100&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=JsDjIYxsi3le8U%2B1hf7LbeSpkmfxuwlNOpzGUaNKlfk%3D&reserved=0> >> >> twitter.com/davidmacd >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fdavidmacd&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=ZStwcyXT7R4WVtfj9wS25kG6yZg8goi0UhNkKJKm2Rw%3D&reserved=0> >> >> GitHub >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FDavidMacDonald&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=fZLQAs3cyJ08ta%2BWe%2Fu%2BWg3OYK2bNy9eY7klV5Czhd0%3D&reserved=0> >> >> www.Can-Adapt.com >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.can-adapt.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=%2FnI%2Fe9VViLJ6Km%2BZzWRNq3SzDOn3G62rgsvlRgCgtF8%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> * Adapting the web to all users* >> >> * Including those with disabilities* >> >> >> >> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidmacd.com%2Fdisclaimer.html&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=dbAUj6IpoIFDszcahOwHEBJMLdNX4SPQvQpDQYqpq9c%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> >> wrote: >> >> Here is the text which seemed to have general agreement on today's call. >> I >> believe the intent is to review tomorrow for CFC. >> >> 3.2.6 Status Changes >> >> Status messages >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__rawgit.com_w3c_wcag21_status-2Dchanges_guidelines_index.html-23dfn-2Dstatus-2Dmessage%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3Do0daxkHGHraHNw9i2iAgh1-u02Hps_TQhDkH1KZHuuQ%26m%3D_JaZik7EdU99oLBKj599Q9tbFXbxQA4UCySnC7YpCFQ%26s%3D4ek-aZ_KwHcC6El7mhBBg_K51sYX3MWCGKwtlLY-ICs%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=G68v755eYmSyYfVeHXxyh4%2F2JT6Xc2J9XFvNNBcsuaY%3D&reserved=0> >> can be programmatically determined >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__rawgit.com_w3c_wcag21_status-2Dchanges_guidelines_index.html-23dfn-2Dprogrammatically-2Ddeterminable%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3Do0daxkHGHraHNw9i2iAgh1-u02Hps_TQhDkH1KZHuuQ%26m%3D_JaZik7EdU99oLBKj599Q9tbFXbxQA4UCySnC7YpCFQ%26s%3D0tYZw7xDb7yqSJLJEF2xF6UAkbY-_Y50ekLcpRtil4c%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=233qLY6To5ACCZ%2BWuD43pwDz0LymxOmjeWQ2ITEvFwc%3D&reserved=0> >> through role >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__rawgit.com_w3c_wcag21_status-2Dchanges_guidelines_index.html-23dfn-2Drole%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3Do0daxkHGHraHNw9i2iAgh1-u02Hps_TQhDkH1KZHuuQ%26m%3D_JaZik7EdU99oLBKj599Q9tbFXbxQA4UCySnC7YpCFQ%26s%3DYf7OkN9Yvrxgi05VKW_0ybgaOWC2QIQ9vb5IvT3-0HI%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=qodR%2B%2FlLSpacOKpki%2Fvrq26B5e3QdV4n35l%2FSrhH5bE%3D&reserved=0>or >> properties such that they can be presented to the user by assistive >> technologies >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__rawgit.com_w3c_wcag21_status-2Dchanges_guidelines_index.html-23dfn-2Dassistive-2Dtechnologies%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3Do0daxkHGHraHNw9i2iAgh1-u02Hps_TQhDkH1KZHuuQ%26m%3D_JaZik7EdU99oLBKj599Q9tbFXbxQA4UCySnC7YpCFQ%26s%3DseJGydJwFexmdBXIpy4rfTX0kv-z9ErZ-2uWHbL2kSc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=Ul7mk9QMzANs%2FikTNniujNZaMerRzud9oTsfyyjdSZ8%3D&reserved=0> >> without receiving focus. >> >> *Status messages* >> Changes in content that are not changes in context, that provide >> information to the user on the success or results of an action, on the >> waiting state of an application, on the progress of a process, or on the >> existence of errors. >> >> >> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/581 >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fpull%2F581&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=K%2F5KTv3XGbIv3q%2F9UD7hn5z1m7MT8vUceRV2JzAuB%2B0%3D&reserved=0> >> >> Michael Gower >> IBM Accessibility >> Research >> >> 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmaps.google.com%2F%3Fq%3D1803%2BDouglas%2BStreet%2C%2BVictoria%2C%2BBC%2B%25C2%25A0V8T%2B5C3%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=Voyi6p%2FvSRWqaz%2Fi4m%2BOs4%2BPnCBykSYvZFx4Z0mdVd8%3D&reserved=0> >> V8T 5C3 >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmaps.google.com%2F%3Fq%3D1803%2BDouglas%2BStreet%2C%2BVictoria%2C%2BBC%2B%25C2%25A0V8T%2B5C3%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=Voyi6p%2FvSRWqaz%2Fi4m%2BOs4%2BPnCBykSYvZFx4Z0mdVd8%3D&reserved=0> >> gowerm@ca.ibm.com >> voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 * fax: (250) 220-8034 >> >> >> >> From: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> >> To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> Date: 2017-11-30 12:26 PM >> Subject: Latest updated version of Purpose of Controls >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> On the call we decided to call it “Identify Common Purpose”. >> >> >> >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/purpose_of_controls_changes3/ >> guidelines/index.html#identify-common-purpose >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__rawgit.com_w3c_wcag21_purpose-5Fof-5Fcontrols-5Fchanges3_guidelines_index.html-23identify-2Dcommon-2Dpurpose%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DRCoI2lSAt-zLWyNtf85vhQ5bwRHVXLzTGalH_rnlPbg%26s%3Dzn0v8jM8l2iice255fTfcqbGwljQgABKWW8jg2QdtO4%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=6ZT7m5KvySdn1kYI61YMR%2FK9S1%2Bk10hmMUmSFspjilc%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> If there are any changes we need consensus by 11:30 ET tomorrow. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> AWK >> >> >> >> Andrew Kirkpatrick >> >> Group Product Manager, Accessibility >> >> Adobe >> >> >> >> akirkpat@adobe.com >> >> http://twitter.com/awkawk >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Ce8577b1d0112428d213e08d538c907ea%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636477358434314554&sdata=1uH65tASgvW8xzIaa5R1xAEh3CGJcPte5uG0Yg3iQkE%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> >> > -- Sailesh Panchang Principal Accessibility Consultant Deque Systems Inc Phone 703-225-0380 ext 105 Mobile: 571-344-1765
Received on Monday, 4 December 2017 14:51:01 UTC