Re: Does 1.4.1 cover differences in state?

On 11/16/2017 11:11 AM, Repsher, Stephen J wrote:
>
> Okay, so you’re more or less singling out hover, but I think it then 
> comes down to how hover is used.
>
> A typical use case of hover is to indicate a clickable area is now 
> under the pointer, however that information is redundant since the 
> mouse cursor will also change so long as a proper role is in place per 
> 4.1.2 and there’s no funny CSS business with the cursor.  I’d agree no 
> 3:1 is required there since it is not the only means.  If the cursor 
> did not change though, I think it should fail.  Agreed?
>
Sure. Sounds reasonable - although there are probably exceptions to 
this. I'm not sure I want to go down the route of thinking of all of 
them right now as I have a lot of catching up to do post TPAC - and this 
seems lower priority than other things.
>
> But then take a more complex example like a drag and drop operation.  
> The pointer may stay with the “grabbed” cursor when dragging something 
> over an area where the object can be dropped, and color alone on hover 
> may be used to indicate you’ve reached a droppable area.  That should 
> fail if not 3:1 or some other means, agreed?
>
Probably but I would again have to think a little more about it. If 
there are other accessible manners to do the same thing (which are 
"equivalent") this may be a case where I would allow it and fall back on 
a conforming alternate version.
>
> Steve
>
> *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:50 PM
> *To:* Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Does 1.4.1 cover differences in state?
>
> Yes. Some state differences are required. 1.4.1 states:
>
> Color is not used as the only visual means of conveying information, 
> indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual 
> element.
>
>   * So the "pressed" state of a toggle button is a way of conveying
>     information so if "color" is the only way this is indicated then
>     it needs to meet a 3:1 ratio between the pressed and unpressed
>     colours.
>   * The same for a "selected" tab page
>   * A link with no underline falls into the either "indicates an
>     action" or "distinguishing a visual element"
>
> However I don't believe a hover state falls into any of these so don't 
> believe it needs to meet this.
>
> Regards,
> james
>
> On 11/16/2017 10:38 AM, Repsher, Stephen J wrote:
>
>     Hi James,
>
>     The proposed Graphics Contrast SC does not attempt to cover
>     differences in state, but I think this is an important question
>     and I’m confused by your conflicting responses (or at least that’s
>     how I perceive it).
>
>     Going back to your words at
>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017OctDec/0436.html
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.w3.org_Archives_Public_w3c-2Dwai-2Dgl_2017OctDec_0436.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=CIHu8rc_0wRTTC_7DvWtiGNKjpA-3oTgbu_6ve6hP0I&m=VuJ9AekS2w8s59IRyHc1bT9zLThXySuaIUzyxxWl7Lg&s=Lq5X_kCEn3R0hwKWQapmcU_5MOazreDdfobx5XOuaRc&e=>...
>
>     Mike: There is no language requiring a contrast minimum between
>     the states themselves. I would really like that to at least be
>     captured in the Understanding doc, if it can't be part of the SC,
>     because being unable to differentiate between states is as much of
>     a problem as not being able to differentiate between controls.
>
>     James: I always fail this on 1.4.1 Use of Color: Color is not used
>     as the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an
>     action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element.
>     (Level A)
>
>     James: If the ratio is 3:1 or greater then it is no longer color
>     alone (hue and lightness) so no longer fails 1.4.1. As such I
>     don’t think this needs to be in this SC.
>
>     So where is the misunderstanding occurring here?  Do you feel
>     1.4.1 applies to some state differences but not others?
>
>     I think this will be an important point to ultimately clarify in
>     the respective Understanding docs for these SC.
>
>     Steve
>
>     *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:32 AM
>     *To:* w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: CFC - Graphics Contrast
>
>     No it would not. 1.4.1 does not mention the word state and include
>     a definition which includes hover. Hover does not fit into the
>     things which fail 1.4.1
>
>     Take for example the page
>     https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-without-color.html
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_UNDERSTANDING-2DWCAG20_visual-2Daudio-2Dcontrast-2Dwithout-2Dcolor.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=CIHu8rc_0wRTTC_7DvWtiGNKjpA-3oTgbu_6ve6hP0I&m=VuJ9AekS2w8s59IRyHc1bT9zLThXySuaIUzyxxWl7Lg&s=S5IeKhESG47_AOwC_OkZVER566af7qqSGDX2iNWJoaA&e=>
>
>     There are contents, intro, Previous and Next buttons at the top of
>     the page. The only difference when they are hovered is the
>     background color.
>
>     The background color is #dde and the hover background color is #aae
>
>     The ratio between these is 1.6:1
>
>     I would not fail this page and I object to any SC which would fail
>     this. My current reading of this new SC along with the definition
>     of state proposed would and hence I object.
>
>     On 11/16/2017 7:54 AM, Repsher, Stephen J wrote:
>
>         Adding to what Alastair is saying, I’m confused by the
>         objection because, as you pointed out, using color alone to
>         differentiate between hover and non-hover would be a violation
>         of 1.4.1.  Only when the 2 states are adjacent and touching
>         would this SC come into play, but the 3:1 ratio requirement is
>         the same.
>
>         Steve
>
>         *From:*Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com]
>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 3:03 AM
>         *To:* James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>         <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>         *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>         *Subject:* RE: CFC - Graphics Contrast
>
>         > Requiring hover to have sufficient contrast ratio to non-hover states has no accessibility
>         requirements behind it as far as I know and would
>         unnecessarily limit color choices in an already limited palette.
>
>         Hi James,
>
>         I don’t think that was discussed directly, but in order for
>         that to be an issue the controls in different states would
>         have to be adjacent, i.e. touching. Even without a mention of
>         states, I think that would be an issue in current WCAG
>         conformance.
>
>         There was some discussion about whether ‘existing’ was a
>         state, and people thought that wasn’t clear so ‘boundaries’
>         was added:
>
>         “Visual information used to indicate states and boundaries of
>         active user interface components”
>
>         (Still with the intent that if it isn’t there, you don’t have
>         to add something.)
>
>         Does that help?
>
>         -Alastair
>
>     -- 
>     Regards, James
>
>     James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>     Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781>| Mobile: +1 415
>     987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>| Video:
>     james.nurthen@oracle.com <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>     OracleCorporate Architecture
>     500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>     Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help
>     protect the environment
>
> -- 
> Regards, James
>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781>| Mobile: +1 415 987 
> 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>| Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
> <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> OracleCorporate Architecture
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help 
> protect the environment
>

-- 
Regards, James

<http://www.oracle.com> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 
1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
<sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing 
practices and products that help protect the environment

Received on Thursday, 16 November 2017 19:27:12 UTC