- From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
- Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:27:24 -0800
- To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
- Message-ID: <6b3e24d9-8748-912d-e00a-c99110a07811@oracle.com>
On 11/16/2017 11:11 AM, Repsher, Stephen J wrote: > > Okay, so you’re more or less singling out hover, but I think it then > comes down to how hover is used. > > A typical use case of hover is to indicate a clickable area is now > under the pointer, however that information is redundant since the > mouse cursor will also change so long as a proper role is in place per > 4.1.2 and there’s no funny CSS business with the cursor. I’d agree no > 3:1 is required there since it is not the only means. If the cursor > did not change though, I think it should fail. Agreed? > Sure. Sounds reasonable - although there are probably exceptions to this. I'm not sure I want to go down the route of thinking of all of them right now as I have a lot of catching up to do post TPAC - and this seems lower priority than other things. > > But then take a more complex example like a drag and drop operation. > The pointer may stay with the “grabbed” cursor when dragging something > over an area where the object can be dropped, and color alone on hover > may be used to indicate you’ve reached a droppable area. That should > fail if not 3:1 or some other means, agreed? > Probably but I would again have to think a little more about it. If there are other accessible manners to do the same thing (which are "equivalent") this may be a case where I would allow it and fall back on a conforming alternate version. > > Steve > > *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:50 PM > *To:* Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: Does 1.4.1 cover differences in state? > > Yes. Some state differences are required. 1.4.1 states: > > Color is not used as the only visual means of conveying information, > indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual > element. > > * So the "pressed" state of a toggle button is a way of conveying > information so if "color" is the only way this is indicated then > it needs to meet a 3:1 ratio between the pressed and unpressed > colours. > * The same for a "selected" tab page > * A link with no underline falls into the either "indicates an > action" or "distinguishing a visual element" > > However I don't believe a hover state falls into any of these so don't > believe it needs to meet this. > > Regards, > james > > On 11/16/2017 10:38 AM, Repsher, Stephen J wrote: > > Hi James, > > The proposed Graphics Contrast SC does not attempt to cover > differences in state, but I think this is an important question > and I’m confused by your conflicting responses (or at least that’s > how I perceive it). > > Going back to your words at > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017OctDec/0436.html > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.w3.org_Archives_Public_w3c-2Dwai-2Dgl_2017OctDec_0436.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=CIHu8rc_0wRTTC_7DvWtiGNKjpA-3oTgbu_6ve6hP0I&m=VuJ9AekS2w8s59IRyHc1bT9zLThXySuaIUzyxxWl7Lg&s=Lq5X_kCEn3R0hwKWQapmcU_5MOazreDdfobx5XOuaRc&e=>... > > Mike: There is no language requiring a contrast minimum between > the states themselves. I would really like that to at least be > captured in the Understanding doc, if it can't be part of the SC, > because being unable to differentiate between states is as much of > a problem as not being able to differentiate between controls. > > James: I always fail this on 1.4.1 Use of Color: Color is not used > as the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an > action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element. > (Level A) > > James: If the ratio is 3:1 or greater then it is no longer color > alone (hue and lightness) so no longer fails 1.4.1. As such I > don’t think this needs to be in this SC. > > So where is the misunderstanding occurring here? Do you feel > 1.4.1 applies to some state differences but not others? > > I think this will be an important point to ultimately clarify in > the respective Understanding docs for these SC. > > Steve > > *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:32 AM > *To:* w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: CFC - Graphics Contrast > > No it would not. 1.4.1 does not mention the word state and include > a definition which includes hover. Hover does not fit into the > things which fail 1.4.1 > > Take for example the page > https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-without-color.html > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_UNDERSTANDING-2DWCAG20_visual-2Daudio-2Dcontrast-2Dwithout-2Dcolor.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=CIHu8rc_0wRTTC_7DvWtiGNKjpA-3oTgbu_6ve6hP0I&m=VuJ9AekS2w8s59IRyHc1bT9zLThXySuaIUzyxxWl7Lg&s=S5IeKhESG47_AOwC_OkZVER566af7qqSGDX2iNWJoaA&e=> > > There are contents, intro, Previous and Next buttons at the top of > the page. The only difference when they are hovered is the > background color. > > The background color is #dde and the hover background color is #aae > > The ratio between these is 1.6:1 > > I would not fail this page and I object to any SC which would fail > this. My current reading of this new SC along with the definition > of state proposed would and hence I object. > > On 11/16/2017 7:54 AM, Repsher, Stephen J wrote: > > Adding to what Alastair is saying, I’m confused by the > objection because, as you pointed out, using color alone to > differentiate between hover and non-hover would be a violation > of 1.4.1. Only when the 2 states are adjacent and touching > would this SC come into play, but the 3:1 ratio requirement is > the same. > > Steve > > *From:*Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 3:03 AM > *To:* James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com> > <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> > *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > *Subject:* RE: CFC - Graphics Contrast > > > Requiring hover to have sufficient contrast ratio to non-hover states has no accessibility > requirements behind it as far as I know and would > unnecessarily limit color choices in an already limited palette. > > Hi James, > > I don’t think that was discussed directly, but in order for > that to be an issue the controls in different states would > have to be adjacent, i.e. touching. Even without a mention of > states, I think that would be an issue in current WCAG > conformance. > > There was some discussion about whether ‘existing’ was a > state, and people thought that wasn’t clear so ‘boundaries’ > was added: > > “Visual information used to indicate states and boundaries of > active user interface components” > > (Still with the intent that if it isn’t there, you don’t have > to add something.) > > Does that help? > > -Alastair > > -- > Regards, James > > James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility > Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781>| Mobile: +1 415 > 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>| Video: > james.nurthen@oracle.com <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com> > OracleCorporate Architecture > 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 > Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help > protect the environment > > -- > Regards, James > > James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility > Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781>| Mobile: +1 415 987 > 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>| Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com > <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com> > OracleCorporate Architecture > 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 > Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help > protect the environment > -- Regards, James <http://www.oracle.com> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com> Oracle Corporate Architecture 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Received on Thursday, 16 November 2017 19:27:12 UTC