Re: Moving Issues 62, 63, 71 to the conformance section

Hi David,

> If they can demonstrate the site working on one mobile technology stack
that should be sufficient.

I'm sorry, I have to *strongly *disagree with that. The W3C has a
long-standing policy of two independent implementations, and I would expect
we maintain that minimum requirement going forward.

I cannot support a SC that is targeted towards addressing an issue (or
issues) with a specific piece of hardware or software (or platform), and if
we cannot demonstrate that the requirement can be achieved on more than one
platform, then we cannot make it a SC Requirement today (hard as that may
be to accept). As somebody once noted
<http://www.davidmacd.com/blog/what-are-WCAG-success-criteria.html#p7>:

Success Criteria are technology neutral


JF

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:57 AM, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
wrote:

> > Try as I might, I've not gotten VoiceOver to work on my Samsung Galaxy
> yet, and I don't think I ever will...
>
> Yes it is shorthand, however, I don't think we can require developers to
> support every environment. Especially buggy environments ...  (such as
> Talkback/Android)
>
> If they can demonstrate the site working on one mobile technology stack
> that should be sufficient.
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
> Mobile:  613.806.9005 <(613)%20806-9005>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
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> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As an aside...
>>
>> > The original intention of the SC is to require VoiceOver compatibility
>> for mobile views
>>
>> Try as I might, I've not gotten VoiceOver to work on my Samsung Galaxy
>> yet, and I don't think I ever will...
>>
>> (I realize that this was more "shorthand" than anything else, but we also
>> need to be mindful that we are looking for functional outcomes, and not SC
>> that address software shortcomings with specific tools - which I know David
>> knows. 😀)
>>
>> JF
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:04 PM, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason
>>>
>>> The original intention of the SC is to require VoiceOver compatibility
>>> for mobile views, especially inaccessible hamburger menus. Personally,
>>> I'd like to simply see a qualification to WCAG 2.0 or 2.1 Conformance that
>>> a page includes changes caused by breakpoints.
>>>
>>> Your wording requires ALL AT to be tested and we found that to be a
>>> limitless scope of every AT available in the Apple store. We could narrow
>>> the scope by limiting the AT the way we did in the SC proposals to
>>> "platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures". This is really
>>> the crux of the problem as we saw it on the task force.
>>>
>>> ***
>>> If (1) the content includes features that adapt the presentation or
>>> functionality for specific hardware or software environments (e.g., as
>>> rendered on devices with different screen sizes), and (2) a different
>>> platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures is used on those
>>> environments then the ways in which technologies are relied upon to satisfy
>>> the success criteria are only accessibility-supported if they are
>>> compatible with user agents and assistive technologies in each of the
>>> environments for which enhancements are provided.
>>> ***
>>>
>>> I know its a mouthful but if its accurate we can do a plain language
>>> pass later.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>> Mobile:  613.806.9005 <(613)%20806-9005>
>>>
>>> LinkedIn
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>
>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>>
>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 4:46 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is interesting. I don’t think screen size is the right concept to
>>>> use for purposes of of the clarification that we need. Also, this proposal
>>>> doesn’t actually clarify the application of the “accessibility-supported”
>>>> requirement by asserting the relevant set of user agents and assistive
>>>> technologies that need to be compatible with the ways of using technologies
>>>> relied on to meet the success criteria. I appreciate its simplicity,
>>>> however.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david@can-adapt.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2017 4:39 PM
>>>> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>>> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Moving Issues 62, 63, 71 to the conformance section
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here's another option which might be easier:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "If components change form based on screen size, they remain
>>>> programmatically determinable and keyboard operable."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would be placed after the last paragraph in the section
>>>> "Understanding Requirement 2" just before the Notes at the end of the
>>>> section. https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conforma
>>>> nce.html#uc-conformance-requirements-head
>>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FUNDERSTANDING-WCAG20%2Fconformance.html%23uc-conformance-requirements-head&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cc5e18b0d103d4893abe408d4ca2f3ddf%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636355751636405902&sdata=OzSa6RsINaMaOkGRz5hP6NJHqSU8BoO86HE7OGWPrVw%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>>
>>>> Mobile:  613.806.9005 <(613)%20806-9005>
>>>>
>>>> LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdavidmacdonald100&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cc5e18b0d103d4893abe408d4ca2f3ddf%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636355751636405902&sdata=EB3oYNzfR2hkc1qw6IbuaCsDcEc8ZU06qljcnuXQQAo%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fdavidmacd&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cc5e18b0d103d4893abe408d4ca2f3ddf%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636355751636405902&sdata=QtuGL8qoBb92JkUa87O%2Bt6l0JmOqZxrzu5lI4GuGy5M%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>> GitHub
>>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FDavidMacDonald&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cc5e18b0d103d4893abe408d4ca2f3ddf%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636355751636405902&sdata=vyZLBGm1BRgreiXBLdYxV4z%2Bnz32zcW9yZ8te9QQCsI%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.can-adapt.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cc5e18b0d103d4893abe408d4ca2f3ddf%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636355751636405902&sdata=uSTGQHJwALkXIBDE0NfG%2BrfFzN9pAH4kXR5YNYXnwH0%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>>>
>>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidmacd.com%2Fdisclaimer.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cc5e18b0d103d4893abe408d4ca2f3ddf%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636355751636405902&sdata=arDC0ucVLw4b1n%2BnUUjj4ZfdTTpk3XOuENhWpddbRPA%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:50 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, David – see further comments below.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david@can-adapt.com]
>>>>
>>>> I like your second condition, adding an "AND" for different AT in those
>>>> environments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Regarding the first condition, Gregg expressed concern regarding using
>>>> broad strokes for the customized view. He suggested we limit it to "size".
>>>> He was nervous that there might be customized delivery of content such
>>>> information spoken in a car etc, that by its very nature could not meet the
>>>> conformance language and inhibit adoption of the standard.
>>>>
>>>> *[Jason] I would like to see good examples of this that would meet both
>>>> of my conditions and which would raise difficulties.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So if I was to take your proposal and adjust it to size, it would look
>>>> something like this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If (1) the content includes features that adapt its presentation or
>>>> functionality based on screen sizes in specific hardware or software
>>>> environments, and (2) different user agents or assistive technologies are
>>>> in use in each of these respective environments, then the ways in which
>>>> technologies are relied upon to satisfy the success criteria are only
>>>> accessibility-supported if they are compatible with user agents and
>>>> assistive technologies in each of the environments for which adaptations
>>>> are provided.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, arguing against myself, your proposal  does limit the scope to
>>>> environments with different AT. If there is no AT for that environment,
>>>> then maybe your language is OK.
>>>>
>>>> *[Jason] Yes, I’m in favor of mentioning screen size, if at all, only
>>>> as an example. Both of the conditions do need to be met for the proposal to
>>>> apply, and it only clarifies (at most, expands) the nature of the
>>>> compatibility guarantee.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Foliot
>> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>> Deque Systems Inc.
>> john.foliot@deque.com
>>
>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>>
>
>


-- 
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
john.foliot@deque.com

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

Received on Friday, 14 July 2017 17:47:09 UTC