Re: Adapting Text Units: Spaces, paragraphs, and ems

Hi John, David, Lisa, Stephen and all,

Another option would be to drop the paragraph bullet for the time
being and include it in the existing editor's note. If we added it, it
would read:

"Editor's note: The Working Group seeks to include overriding text
color, background color, font-family, and spacing between paragraphs
as part of this SC, but is not yet able to identify a way to do so
that is sufficiently testable."

That way  we may get help from the public.

Lisa, would you object to that?

Thanks everyone.

Kindest Regards,
Laura

On 7/12/17, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> Interesting idea, but I think a bit *too* messy... for testing purposes
> it's usually beneficial to set a minimum and maximum expectation. For
> example, if a site could increase the spacing by 1.8% (just pulling a
> number out of the air) and everything still "worked", but by increasing the
> spacing by 200% and everything fell apart, would that be a pass or fail? At
> some point there needs to be a ceiling on a reasonable expectation of
> scaling, no?
>
> JF
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:28 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> What about a generic test with no measurement.
>>
>> - Space between paragraphs can be increased.
>>
>> Sure it will beg the question "by how much?", but we can explain in the
>> understanding that ANY value of increase without loss of functionality
>> will
>> pass. In other words, if the paragraph spacing increase 10% for some
>> paragraphs  and 15% in others, it passes. That would also be true if it
>> was
>> 1% increased space for some and 2% for others. Its kind of messy but
>> testable.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
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>>
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>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
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>>
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>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:05 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
>> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The difference is that 1.4.8 requires that a mechanism be available to
>>> make the adaptations.  For the SC in question, the assumption is that
>>> the
>>> user already has a mechanism and the criterion ensures they can execute
>>> that adaptation with ease and no losses.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Laura Carlson [mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 3:59 PM
>>> To: Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; Lisa Seeman <
>>> lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
>>> Cc: public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>;
>>> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: Adapting Text Units: Spaces, paragraphs, and ems
>>>
>>> Hi Stephen and Lisa,
>>>
>>> Steve, thank you very much for your explanation and work on this. I
>>> agree
>>> that the paragraph bullet complicate testing Adapting Text SC.
>>>
>>> On 7/12/17, Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > The other 3 bullets are important because they affect the content
>>> > within the element and thus how it is sized is being tested.  What is
>>> > being tested with paragraph spacing?
>>>
>>> Lisa, could you please answer that, as you're the person who is
>>> objecting
>>> to having the Adapting Text SC in 2.1 without it.
>>>
>>> Steve, my thought would be the same as WCAG 2.0 1.4.8 Visual
>>> Presentation: spacing between paragraphs. It says:
>>>
>>> "...Line spacing (leading) is at least space-and-a-half within
>>> paragraphs, and paragraph spacing is at least 1.5 times larger than the
>>> line spacing..."
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20#visual-audio-contrast-visual-presentation
>>>
>>> Is that untestable?
>>>
>>> COGA does have their Visual Presentation SC #51:
>>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/51
>>>
>>> If it would simplify matters, perhaps it could be specified in Issue 51.
>>> Lisa your thoughts. Would you object to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>>> Kindest Regards,
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> On 7/12/17, Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>> > If paragraph spacing must be included, then we can do it as a factor
>>> > on font size just like the rest, although it will have ambiguity as to
>>> > which “paragraph’s” font size to use along with much more…
>>> >
>>> > I purposely did not include it because of all the other layout
>>> > questions it raises, and the fact that we’d need a clear definition
>>> > for paragraph spacing.  I’m sorry but it’s just nowhere near as
>>> > testable as the other 3 bullets.  Here’s some questions we should be
>>> prepared to deal with:
>>> >
>>> > 1.       Which paragraph’s font size do I base the spacing on?
>>> >
>>> > 2.       Is it spacing before or after or split between the two?
>>> >
>>> > 3.       Does a heading or sub-heading count as a paragraph?  Seems
>>> > like
>>> > that would be a much bigger distinguisher so I’m assuming no.
>>> >
>>> > 4.       What if a list, block quote, image, or other element breaks
>>> > up
>>> a
>>> > paragraph?  This becomes an important difference depending on the
>>> > answers to
>>> > 1 and 2.
>>> >
>>> > 5.       If a paragraph has another visual distinction like a first
>>> > line
>>> > indent or border, is the spacing requirement the same?
>>> >
>>> > In the end though, I’m having a tough time seeing how a test for
>>> > paragraph spacing could ever really fail in the context of this
>>> > criterion, and what CSS rules would be used to test it that didn’t
>>> > make a lot of assumptions on tags used by the author.  For example, if
>>> > I start with a typical site with no negative margins and no absolutely
>>> > positioned elements, then what possible content or functionality could
>>> be lost by applying:
>>> >
>>> > p + p {margin-top: 1em}
>>> > p ~ p {margin-bottom: 1em}
>>> >
>>> > The other 3 bullets are important because they affect the content
>>> > within the element and thus how it is sized is being tested.  What is
>>> > being tested with paragraph spacing?
>>> >
>>> > Steve
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From: Katie Haritos-Shea [mailto:ryladog@gmail.com]
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:23 PM
>>> > To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>> > Cc: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>; public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>>> > <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>; Jason White <jjwhite@ets.org>;
>>> > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Detlev
>>> > Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>; Repsher, Stephen J
>>> > <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; Greg Lowney
>>> > <gcl-0039@access-research.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: Adapting Text Units: Spaces, paragraphs, and ems
>>> >
>>> > +1 to Stephens technology agnostic language approach.
>>> >
>>> > Awesome work Wayne, Alistair, Laura etc all...
>>> > Katie Haritos-Shea
>>> > 703-371-5545
>>> >
>>> > On Jul 12, 2017 2:11 PM, "Laura Carlson"
>>> > <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com<mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Hi Steve,
>>> >
>>> > How would you propose to phase new paragraph bullet using font size?
>>> > Lisa has objected to inclusion of the Adapting Text SC in 2.1 without
>>> > it.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks.
>>> >
>>> > Kindest Regards,
>>> > Laura
>>> >
>>> > On 7/12/17, Repsher, Stephen J
>>> > <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com<mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> We’re not being technology agnostic here.  The truth is that the only
>>> >> reason we are drawing a difference between em units and a unitless
>>> >> factor on the font size is technology-specific to CSS.  In reality
>>> >> they are exactly the same, i.e. for the current element:
>>> >>
>>> >> `Line-height: 1.5` = `line-height: 1.5em`
>>> >>
>>> >> The problem is that these are inherited properties, so a length value
>>> >> in em passes the same computed length to children, while the factor
>>> >> becomes a factor on the child’s font size.  Obviously the latter is
>>> >> usually the desired behavior.  Why the CSS standard doesn’t also
>>> >> allow factors to be used for `letter-spacing` and `word-spacing` is a
>>> >> good question.
>>> >>
>>> >> So, to be totally technology agnostic here, we ought to pick one and
>>> >> be consistent.  Given the confusion that could arise by specifying
>>> >> inheritance with em units, I’d strongly vote for the following:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> 1.       line height (line spacing) to at least 1.5 times the font
>>> >> size
>>> >>
>>> >> 2.       letter spacing (tracking) to at least 0.12 times the font
>>> >> size
>>> >>
>>> >> 3.       word spacing to at least 0.16 times the font size
>>> >>
>>> >> We can explain what this translates to for CSS in Understanding,
>>> >> which is advantageous in case things change.
>>> >>
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> From: Alastair Campbell
>>> >> [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>]
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:17 PM
>>> >> To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>
>>> >> Cc: Laura Carlson
>>> >> <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com<mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>>;
>>> >> Greg Lowney
>>> >> <gcl-0039@access-research.org<mailto:gcl-0039@access-research.org>>;
>>> >> Jason White <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>; Detlev Fischer
>>> >> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de<mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>;
>>> >> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>;
>>> >> public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>>> >> <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3
>>> >> .org>>
>>> >> Subject: Re: Adapting Text Units: Spaces, paragraphs, and ems
>>> >>
>>> >> That’s fine for me, thanks.
>>> >>
>>> >> Any objections? Going, going…
>>> >>
>>> >> -Alastair
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> From: John Foliot
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi Alastair,
>>> >>
>>> >> A bit more fine-tuning... how about:
>>> >>
>>> >> * line-height (spacing) to at least 1.5 em (space line-and-a-half)
>>> >> * spacing between paragraphs to at least 2 em (2 lines)
>>> >>
>>> >> * letter spacing (tracking) to at least 0.12 em
>>> >> * word spacing to at least 0.16 em
>>> >>
>>> >> ???
>>> >>
>>> >> JF
>>>
>>> --
>>> Laura L. Carlson
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>


-- 
Laura L. Carlson

Received on Wednesday, 12 July 2017 21:08:37 UTC