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RE: Meta Data

From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 20:11:08 +0000
To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
CC: Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com>, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, Wilco Fiers <wilco.fiers@deque.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, Charles LaPierre <Charlesl@benetech.org>, Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR0201MB1615F70A5279D34EE32BD2F3D58C0@SN1PR0201MB1615.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Hi David,

The properties that we have been working on are available in two places. There are some terms were written a few years ago (and derive from the IMS Global Access for All Project). These are linked to from https://schema.org/accessibilityFeature. The wiki details information at https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility.


The newer, pending terms are available at:
http://pending.schema.org/.

http://pending.schema.org/accessMode

http://pending.schema.org/accessModeSufficient

http://pending.schema.org/accessibilitySummary


If I’m understanding your proposal correctly, you would like to see a new property called AccessibilityConformance, with predefined values that align with WCAG levels. That sounds like a great idea, but we would have to go through the schema.org extensions process [1]. That is how we reached all of the other properties. We have also talked about including information about conformance and/or certification. We thought it would be helpful to include not just what the site conforms to but who certifies that the site is conformant. There are lots of sites that claim to be WCAG AA-compliant, but that is a very broad statement.

So, if there is language on the wiki that you would like to edit so that we reflect more about WCAG, we can do that. We cannot add a property at this stage. We are happy to work on adding more accessibility properties in the future. The schema.org CG seemed really interested in growing this, not just from a WCAG perspective but also expanding scope to include information such as whether physical locations include wheelchair ramps.

Thanks,
Tzviya

[1] https://schema.org/docs/extension.html


Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 2:52 PM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
Cc: Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL; Matt Garrish; George Kerscher; Wilco Fiers; WCAG; Charles LaPierre; Avneesh Singh
Subject: Re: Meta Data

Hi Tzviya

The WIKI seems to be documenting the Schema.org accessibility properties, which is helpful but I'm not sure what I could recommend for that page given that it just documents what's in the standard, through an accessibility lens. Maybe I'm missing something.

My proposal is to introduce a simply way to report conformance through meta data, and the properties I proposed where because I didn't see anything on Screma.org that did that.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
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On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
Hi David,

Thanks for the input.

Proposing new Properties and their values to schema.org<http://schema.org> is not quite the same as making editorial changes to the wiki. It took months of work for the existing properties to be approved by the schema.org<http://schema.org> CG. These proposals look great, but they would need to be proposed to the committee.

The changes that we can make at this point are to the language in https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility. There is no explicit mention of WCAG anywhere on this site. Would you recommend mentioning WCAG on this site? Can you provide specific language?

Thanks,
Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884>
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL [mailto:ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 12:12 PM
To: 'David MacDonald'; 'Matt Garrish'; 'George Kerscher'; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; 'Wilco Fiers'
Cc: 'WCAG'; 'Charles LaPierre'; 'Avneesh Singh'
Subject: RE: Meta Data

Changing Wilco’s email to his Deque one (wilco.fiers@deque.com<mailto:wilco.fiers@deque.com> )

​​​​​



* katie *

Katie Haritos-Shea
Principal ICT Accessibility Architect (WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA)

Cell: 703-371-5545<tel:703-371-5545> | ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com> | Oakton, VA | LinkedIn Profile<http://www.linkedin.com/in/katieharitosshea/> | Office: 703-371-5545<tel:703-371-5545> | @ryladog<https://twitter.com/Ryladog>

From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 12:09 PM
To: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>; Wilco Fiers <w.fiers@accessibility.nl<mailto:w.fiers@accessibility.nl>>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>>; Charles LaPierre <Charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:Charlesl@benetech.org>>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>
Subject: Meta Data

On the call today it was decided to move forward with a new AAA for MetaData from DPUB perhaps something simple like

SC XXXX Metatdata: Metadata is provided which describes the accessibility characteristics of the content

The understanding could reference Schema.org

It was also requested by dPUB for us to propose any new Meta Data terms for Scema.org we'd like to see. I suggest the following:

(1) The WCAG level of conformance claimed
(2) The technology relied upon for conformance

For the first property I could see something like this:

accessibilityConformance:

with the following values for each of the WCAG 2 and 2.1 Levels and more could be added if further standards show up.

levelWCAG2-A
levelWCAG2-AA
levelWCAG2-AAA
levelWCAG2v1-A
levelWCAG2v1-AA
levelWCAG2v1-AAA


​I'm not sure how to do the 2nd. Technology relied upon​, because i'd hate to limit the values.  Maybe just start with the conformance level.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902<tel:613.235.4902>

LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

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On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com<mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote:
Hi David

I recall that a “set of software programs” was something that few of us have experienced although one member of the Task Force assured us that he had spotted one “in the wild”. I couldn’t recall whether we agreed that a set of documents was similarly rare (although I think that, with the very tight conditions, it probably is).

I do recall that one of the arguments for not including these success criteria for documents was the concern that a large amount of time could be spent by people evaluating to the standard to search through what could be large ICT systems trying to identify if there were any sets of software – only to get a negative answer in almost all cases. I also recall that a problem could be that something that did meet the set of documents at one point might no longer be a set of documents if updates to part of the set were made.

Overall, the conclusion were that:


-          including the interpretation of these success criteria in the form that they were written was unlikely to lead to an improvement in accessibility for the vast majority of ICT procurements (in the same way that they are for Web pages);

-          much time could be wasted in all ICT procurements trying to identify if any of these rare sets of documents existed.

This resulted in the decision not to include them (in their current form). I’m not sure that the case is strong enough to merit revisiting that conclusion.

Best regards

Mike

From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>]
Sent: 23 November 2016 16:55
To: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com<mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>>
Cc: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>>; Wilco Fiers <w.fiers@accessibility.nl<mailto:w.fiers@accessibility.nl>>; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>; Charles LaPierre <Charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:Charlesl@benetech.org>>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>

Subject: Re: DPUB Set of Web Pages

Hi Mike

It might be worth it to loop the member of your team who felt it necessary for the EU to diverge from the WCAG2ICT on those specific issues... we did agree on the WCG2ICT that a "set of documents" would not be common in the document world, but it did work when applied to documents, which facilitated consensus on the WCAG2ICT for the entire adoption of WCAG to Software and documents.

I often find in standards, as you may have experienced, that sometimes just sitting down and talking together helps us unify and make stronger global standards that are not splintered. I'd be keen to sit down with your technician and see if we can come together.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902<tel:613.235.4902>

LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

twitter.com/davidmacd<http://twitter.com/davidmacd>

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On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com<mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote:
I agree.

I certainly wouldn’t recommend a solution that ignores those requirements. As I said, I wish you luck in getting a good solution to enable you to include them. If you succeed I, for one, would push to have this solution incorporated in any future update of EN 301 549!

Best regards

Mike

From: Matt Garrish [mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>]
Sent: 23 November 2016 16:06
To: 'David MacDonald' <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
Cc: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; 'Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL' <ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>>; 'Wilco Fiers' <w.fiers@accessibility.nl<mailto:w.fiers@accessibility.nl>>; 'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken' <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; 'George Kerscher' <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>; 'Charles LaPierre' <Charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:Charlesl@benetech.org>>; 'Avneesh Singh' <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: DPUB Set of Web Pages

Yes, this is interesting, but I'm not sure how to respond. As we work to a web publication definition, there are challenges we'll need to address, but I can't see how we could develop a specification that ignores wcag requirements. You absolutely have to have multiple ways to access the pages of a publication, for example. In EPUB, the reading system facilitates seamless navigation from document to document through the spine (metadata about the order). There is also a required table of contents, and publications often have other forms of navigation, like indexes, access to static page break locations, search functionality through the reading system, etc. I'm fully expecting that we won't compromise anywhere, but details of the pitfalls you encountered would be helpful.

Matt

From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
Sent: November 23, 2016 10:52 AM
To: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>
Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>>; Wilco Fiers <w.fiers@accessibility.nl<mailto:w.fiers@accessibility.nl>>; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>; Charles LaPierre <Charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:Charlesl@benetech.org>>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: DPUB Set of Web Pages

Hi Mike

>was developed the consensus opinion was that applying 2.4.1, 2.4.5, 3.2.3 and 3.2.4 to documents using the “set of documents” definition did not capture the key accessibility needs.

Can you explain this further? I was an active member of the WCAG2ICT TF with you on all of those calls for a year.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902<tel:613.235.4902>

LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

twitter.com/davidmacd<http://twitter.com/davidmacd>

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On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 10:32 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
Hi Matt

I think including a epub example in a set of web pages wouldn't preclude a more specific definition of epub at a later time, or even in a later version of WCAG ... on the other hand, maybe we could introduce a new term in 2.1 if we have it very soon.

It just seems to me that "a set of web pages" and inherent in that the "web page definition" of the base URL and associated assets, is a perfect short term definition that would accomplish what George mentioned about working epub into the web page framework so that the WCAG Success Criteria can explicitly apply to epub.

Although just the fact that they sit at a URL already allows WCAG Success Criteria to apply to epub, and WCAG2ICT applies when its offline.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902<tel:613.235.4902>

LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

twitter.com/davidmacd<http://twitter.com/davidmacd>

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On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks, David, this is a good start. I'd just suggest that we keep any definition of a web publication agnostic to specific formats.

As Tzviya mentioned on the call, the DPUB group will be taking up the issues from yesterday on their next call, so we'll have more to say about example wording and metadata after we can involve the full group.

Matt

From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>]
Sent: November 22, 2016 3:26 PM
To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>>; Wilco Fiers <w.fiers@accessibility.nl<mailto:w.fiers@accessibility.nl>>; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>; markus.gylling@idpf.org<mailto:markus.gylling@idpf.org>; matt.garrish@bell.net<mailto:matt.garrish@bell.net>; Charles LaPierre <Charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:Charlesl@benetech.org>>; Avneesh Saxena <Avneesh.s@gmail.com<mailto:Avneesh.s@gmail.com>>
Subject: DPUB Set of Web Pages

Note: DPUB members, this is my personal opinion, not speaking for WG

Today we discussed ways that we could role a DPUB package into our definition of web page.

DPUB packages have more than one URL, and as such cannot be considered under our current definition as a web page. However, we have a useful definition in WCAG which lends itself ideally to a DPUB document. That is a "Set of Web Pages"

set of Web pages

collection of Web pages<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#webpagedef> that share a common purpose and that are created by the same author, group or organization

Note: Different language versions would be considered different sets of Web pages.
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#set-of-web-pagesdef


We could add something like this to the definition

"Example: An epub publication has a table of contents and 25 separate URLs representing each chapter of a digital book."

If the DPUB team has Success Criteria they would like to propose for WCAG, for DEC 1st, I suggest they submit them using this definition. For instance, if they want ways to link from a TOC to another chapter of the document and back, they could propose something like:

       "Every link from a Table of Contents in a set of web pages has a corresponding link back to the Table of Contents"

Of course this SC  is just off the top of my head but it gives an idea of how this type of SC could be written with this language.

=============
Also we discussed meta data as a means of reporting conformance. WCAG 2 has a discussion of meta data in Appendix C which may be useful.
https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/appendixC.html



Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902<tel:613.235.4902>

LinkedIn
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Received on Wednesday, 30 November 2016 20:11:52 UTC

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