Re: Success Criteria Best Practice Guidelines

Lisa,
I find it hard also, but doing work asynchronously is important.  This started after discussing these on the call and I do think that we are very close to consensus, so I hope that you can continue to engage.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
Adobe

akirkpat@adobe.com
http://twitter.com/awkawk


From: "lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>
Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 11:01
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
Subject: Re: Success Criteria Best Practice Guidelines

I find this hard to do by email. Maybe we can do it on a call with practical example

All the best

Lisa Seeman

LinkedIn<http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter<https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>




---- On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:47:24 +0300 Andrew Kirkpatrick<akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote ----
I think that you are taking the notes idea out of context.

“SC are better when they do not require the use of notes”

We could say

“Avoid the use of notes”

Is that better?

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
Adobe

akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
http://twitter.com/awkawk


From: "lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>
Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 10:39
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
Subject: Re: Success Criteria Best Practice Guidelines


We can have no lists at all and have a 100 new SC's  - but that just makes it harder to use. I think we agreed that that is not good. So minimizing (to 0)  is a very bad idea.

 Clearly no one wants redundant or unnecessary list items, and we all want it to be as easy to use as possible, so this guidance will just make for arguments later on when people try and get rid of list items that we need.

Can we put this back on the agenda for the call next week?


We also did not agree on "Do not require the use of "notes""

All the best

Lisa Seeman

LinkedIn<http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter<https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>




---- On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:31:41 +0300 Andrew Kirkpatrick<akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote ----
Lisa,
I’m not sure that I would agree that there was full agreement that lists are needed.  You presented a situation where there was a long list of items and I think that the group acknowledged that there may be other ways to handle a long list (e.g. Breaking into different SC, for example) but also acknowledged that we don’t want to make an outright prohibition on the use of lists.

I think that the general feeling is that putting items into lists adds confusion to the SC, so we should minimize the use of lists to just situations where it is really necessary.

I believe that the current language supports this:

  *   Minimize the use of lists and when necessary numbered lists are preferred to more easily allow referencing specific items

Do you agree?

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
Adobe

akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
http://twitter.com/awkawk


From: "lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>
Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2016 at 21:53
To: CAE-Vanderhe <gregg@raisingthefloor.org<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org>>
Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Success Criteria Best Practice Guidelines

That depends on the list. We went over some of the proposed sc on the call two weeks ago so that the group could see why sometimes lists are needed. There seemed to be full agreement that in practice they are needed

All the best

Lisa Seeman

LinkedIn<http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter<https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>




---- On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 00:59:52 +0300 Gregg Vanderheiden<gregg@raisingthefloor.org<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org>> wrote ----

very nice

one more thought.     SC should not use lists for what to include or exclude.  They should have descriptions that allow a person to determine what they apply to or not if at all possible.  New things come up every day that need to be included or excluded.   And lists in SC won’t address them.

gregg

On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:48 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote:

On Tuesday’s call the Working Group did not get to discuss the best practice guidelines, but we wanted to get discussion going on the list.  The survey where we started the discussion on this is https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/reqsWCAG21/results.


==start==
Success Criteria Best Practice Guidelines

For the Working Group to accept a candidate success criterion, they need to fit within the overall structure. The following are guidelines that will help the Working Group efficiently process suggested SC:

  *   Ensure that the criteria is written as simply as possible. SC are better when they:
     *   Are short in length
     *   Minimize the use of lists and when necessary numbered lists are preferred to more easily allow referencing specific items
     *   Do not require the use of "notes" (Notes are regarded as Normative in WCAG 2.0 and 2.1)
     *   Avoid jargon and unnecesarily complex language.
  *   When utilizing a glossary term (or adding a glossary term) the SC needs to make sense when the defined term is replaced with the full glossary definition.
  *   The SC can be summarized into a simple language sentence that describes its theme

==end==

Please provide any comments/suggestions.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
Adobe

akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
http://twitter.com/awkawk