- From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 15:18:23 -0500
- To: "'Katie Haritos-Shea'" <ryladog@gmail.com>
- Cc: "'David MacDonald'" <david100@sympatico.ca>, "'Joshue O Connor'" <josh@interaccess.ie>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Wayne Dick'" <wayneedick@gmail.com>
- Message-ID: <04f201d1e1fa$b407f8f0$1c17ead0$@deque.com>
Hi Katie,
Actually, I think it’s the other way ‘round: Assistive Technologies draw the abstracted Role, State, and Property(ies) from the Accessibility APIs, and ARIA is a means of providing information about the content *to* the Accessibility API when that information is not natively exposed through the host mark-up language (i.e. <button> and <div role=”button”> are both exposed as buttons in the AAPI).
The larger point however is that the Accessibility APIs don’t always provide a solution to all users with disabilities, only to those users who rely on tools that access the AAPI. The current “programmatically associated” phrase that kicked off this thread can go beyond just “Accessible Name” or any other AAPI construct, and so again swinging back to the original topic, I would be opposed to replacing "programmatically determined link context" in SC 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name" in WCAG 2.1
JF
From: Katie Haritos-Shea [mailto:ryladog@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 3:08 PM
To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Cc: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (WCAG 2.1) Do we want to replace "programmatically determined link context" in 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name"?
Accessibility APIs expose accessible name, description, etc. ARIA draws upon those components in AAPIs.
So, it isnt just about the term Accessible Name, it is about all of the AAPI components.
Katie Haritos-Shea
703-371-5545
On Jul 19, 2016 3:27 PM, "Katie Haritos-Shea" <ryladog@gmail.com <mailto:ryladog@gmail.com> > wrote:
Yes, that right (nice to see you looked that up JF...:-)
I actually think we do *need* to include and address AAPI access, differentiated from ARIA (not instead of - its not an either/or distinction), and how semantic html can use, expose and leverage these components. AAPIs are *not* inherently blind- centric and can be leveraged, as well as ARIA if desired.
The advantage of leveraging AAPIs is that they provide the rationale and natural mapping for good semantics in html. And they inherently do deal with interactivity.
Katie Haritos-Shea
703-371-5545 <tel:703-371-5545>
On Jul 19, 2016 3:09 PM, "John Foliot" <john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com> > wrote:
Yep, Accessible Name originally derived from MSAA, which was the first accessibility API that assistive technology could rely upon. I think the point that Wayne was making is that the accessibility APIs do not address all accessibility issues, and limiting ourselves to a term that is very AAPI specific may, as Gregg noted, actually be more limiting in scope and restrict potential solutions going forward.
JF
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 1:54 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> > wrote:
That's right Katie
The Accessible Name comes from the accessibility API rather than the language ARIA that talks to the API. A regular HTML form label has an Accessible Name. A bit of history is here
https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/03/web-accessibility-with-accessibility-api/
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902 <tel:613.235.4902>
LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>
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On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 2:08 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> > wrote:
Jason has an important concern, that we would have to provide a way for authors to provide context when it is useful rather than a verbose accessible name...
I also wonder about the familiar pattern on many home pages:
Linked heading to an article
Teaser sentence or paragraph summarizing or starting the article
"read more" link to same page as the heading
In the links list you get something like this:
Sun is shining over WCAG
Read More
Mobile Task Force getting along wonderfully
Read more
Cognitive task force make great progress
read more
I currently don't know how much of a problem that is... would it be better like this using labelledby?
Sun is shining over WCAG
Read More Sun is shining over WCAG
Mobile Task Force have joyful call together
Read more Mobile Task Force getting along wonderfully
Cognitive task force make great progress
read more Cognitive task force make great progress
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902 <tel:613.235.4902>
LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>
<https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> GitHub
www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
Adapting the web to all users
Including those with disabilities
If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:30 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com> > wrote:
Sure, but I also agree with Wayne.
I loves me the ARIA, but it is mostly targeted to screen reader users, and we need to remember other user-groups as well. I would be in favor of *adding* Accessible Name, but we must recognize that it is but a reference to the ARIA API mappings. I wonder aloud how many mainstream developers even know that term today…
I think I would be opposed to simply swapping out one term/phrase for the other.
JF
From: josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie> [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie> ]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 11:27 AM
To: Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com <mailto:wayneedick@gmail.com> >; David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> >
Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >
Subject: Re[2]: (WCAG 2.1) Do we want to replace "programmatically determined link context" in 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name"?
I also think the terms are too similar - but I know where David is coming from with this.
Thanks
Josh
------ Original Message ------
From: "Wayne Dick" <wayneedick@gmail.com <mailto:wayneedick@gmail.com> >
To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> >
Cc: "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >
Sent: 19/07/2016 17:07:07
Subject: Re: (WCAG 2.1) Do we want to replace "programmatically determined link context" in 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name"?
I hope you don't mean the accessible name as in the accessible name computation in ARIA 1.0 and 1.1. That is out of the frying pan into the fire.
Wayne
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 6:13 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> > wrote:
***This is proposed for version 2.1. NOT for 2.0 ***
Do we want to consider replacing
"
programmatically determined link context" with "Accessible name" in 2.4.4.
This will simplify the requirement, eliminate that awkward definition that few developers understood, and ensure that when screen reader users pull up a list of links on on conforming page, they will not get "learn more" etc... because screen readers provide the accessible name in the links list, not just the link text. So an aria-label or aria-labelledby will render a meaningful text in the list. AccessibleName wasn't well understood or supported back in 2006-2008.
===Current===
2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context): The purpose of each link can be determined from the link text alone or from the link text together with its
programmatically determined link context, except where the purpose of the link would be ambiguous to users in general. (Level A)
=== Proposal change===
2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context): The purpose of each link can be determined from the link text alone or Accessible Name, except where the purpose of the link would be ambiguous to users in general. (Level A)
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902 <tel:613.235.4902>
LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>
<https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> GitHub
http://www.can-adapt.com/
Adapting the web to all users
Including those with disabilities
If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com> john.foliot@deque.com
Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
Received on Tuesday, 19 July 2016 20:19:09 UTC