Re: Re[2]: (WCAG 2.1) Do we want to replace ​"programmatically determined link context" in 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name"?

Responses to several peoples questions and comments below.

>>I'd prefer we look at the requirement as an abstract functional
requirement, and not as a potential solution in search of a Success
Criteria. You *could* use aria-labelledby as *one* possible solution, but I
don't want to exclude other possibilities, including some that may not yet
be "invented".

Agree. I think they'll all use the Accessibility API and therefore the
Accessible Name.

>>I also think that Wayne's point is that we should be thinking beyond
"Accessible Names" and Screen Readers alone, a point I know you know, but
sometimes gets lost when we start chiselling things into smaller pieces.

There is a dedicated low vision task force, and dedicated Cognitive Task
force. I expect they'll have some great SCs for our consideration. I
realize these stakeholders were perhaps underserved in WCAG 2 and that
screen readers got  attention for a number of reasons. But I've taken it
upon myself to try to ensure that updates for blind people are also
considered in this next version. This of course doesn't take anything away
from other stakeholders, and as new SCs come in December, I'm sure there
will be lots of amalgamation.

>>perhaps we could look to incorporate AccessibleName into the 2.1 Spec
somehow.

If that is our consensus sure, but that means we haven't solved the issue
of lists of ambiguous links for folks who are blind, even tough the
technology to fix it is main stream. It would add a bit of pastoral advice
which is always helpful but doesn't change any requirements in 2.1.

>One can also use title or aria-describedby  to qualify what  the linked
text "Read more"  relates to ... that is not an accessible name.

​Nor does it show up in a list of links which is what I'd like to solve
​

​>>​
What is needed, is to coax AT manufacturers to support sufficient
​ ​
techniques that will enable users to read sentence / para / list item/
closest preceding heading so that they can determine context without
​ ​
moving focus away
​ from the link.​

​That is already available,
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/Techniques/ua-notes/general#G53
​ ​

but that will never appear in a links list. The Accessible Name does.



Cheers,
David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
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On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote:

> Yep, Accessible Name originally derived from MSAA, which was the first
> accessibility API that assistive technology could rely upon. I think the
> point that Wayne was making is that the accessibility APIs do not address
> all accessibility issues, and limiting ourselves to a term that is very
> AAPI specific may, as Gregg noted, actually be more limiting in scope and
> restrict potential solutions going forward.
>
> JF
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 1:54 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> That's right Katie
>>
>> The Accessible Name comes from the accessibility API rather than the
>> language ARIA that talks to the API. A regular HTML form label has an
>> Accessible Name. A bit of history is here
>>
>> https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/03/web-accessibility-with-accessibility-api/
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>
>> LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>
>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>
>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 2:08 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason has an important concern, that we would have to provide a way for
>>> authors to provide context when it is useful rather than a verbose
>>> accessible name...
>>>
>>> I also wonder about the familiar pattern on many home pages:
>>>
>>> Linked heading to an article
>>> Teaser sentence or paragraph summarizing or starting the article
>>> "read more" link to same page as the heading
>>>
>>> In the links list you get something like this:
>>>
>>> Sun is shining over WCAG
>>> Read More
>>> Mobile Task Force getting along wonderfully
>>> Read more
>>> Cognitive task force make great progress
>>> read more
>>>
>>> I currently don't know how much of a problem that is... would it be
>>> better like this using labelledby?
>>>
>>> Sun is shining over WCAG
>>> Read More Sun is shining over WCAG
>>> Mobile Task Force have joyful call together
>>> Read more Mobile Task Force getting along wonderfully
>>> Cognitive task force make great progress
>>> read more Cognitive task force make great progress
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>
>>> LinkedIn
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>
>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>>
>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:30 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sure, but I also agree with Wayne.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I loves me the ARIA, but it is mostly targeted to screen reader users,
>>>> and we need to remember other user-groups as well. I would be in favor of *
>>>> *adding** Accessible Name, but we must recognize that it is but a
>>>> reference to the ARIA API mappings. I wonder aloud how many mainstream
>>>> developers even know that term today…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think I would be opposed to simply swapping out one term/phrase for
>>>> the other.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> JF
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* josh@interaccess.ie [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 11:27 AM
>>>> *To:* Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>; David MacDonald <
>>>> david100@sympatico.ca>
>>>> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re[2]: (WCAG 2.1) Do we want to replace ​"programmatically
>>>> determined link context" in 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also think the terms are too similar - but I know where David is
>>>> coming from with this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>
>>>> From: "Wayne Dick" <wayneedick@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>>>
>>>> Cc: "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: 19/07/2016 17:07:07
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: (WCAG 2.1) Do we want to replace ​"programmatically
>>>> determined link context" in 2.4.4 with "Accessible Name"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hope you don't mean the accessible name as in the accessible name
>>>> computation in ARIA 1.0 and 1.1.  That is out of the frying pan into the
>>>> fire.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 6:13 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ***This is proposed for version 2.1. NOT for 2.0 ***
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do we want to consider replacing
>>>>
>>>> ​"
>>>>
>>>> programmatically determined link context" with "Accessible name" in
>>>> 2.4.4.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This will simplify the requirement, eliminate that awkward definition
>>>> that few developers understood, and ensure that when screen reader users
>>>> pull up a list of links on on conforming page, they will not get "learn
>>>> more" etc... because screen readers provide the accessible name in the
>>>> links list, not just the link text. So an aria-label or aria-labelledby
>>>> will render a meaningful text in the list. AccessibleName wasn't well
>>>> understood or supported back in 2006-2008.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ===Current===
>>>>
>>>> 2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context): The purpose of each link can be
>>>> determined from the link text alone or from the link text together with its
>>>>
>>>> ​​
>>>>
>>>> programmatically determined link context, except where the purpose of
>>>> the link would be ambiguous to users in general. (Level A)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ​=== Proposal change===
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context): The purpose of each link can be
>>>> determined from the link text alone or Accessible Name, except where the
>>>> purpose of the link would be ambiguous to users in general. (Level A)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>>
>>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>>
>>>> LinkedIn
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>>
>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>>>
>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.can-adapt.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>>>
>>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>