Re: Transient states

So we are operating with complete information - this was Gregg's comment 
in the original issue

GV:
I would say that it would not be a failure for either a mouse or a 
keyboard focus.  Here is the rationale.

the purpose of high contrast is to allow it to be read.  This is true 
for both the mouse and keyboard  because the person can simply read it 
before focusing on it.   They then focus on it and then activate it.  
It  WOULD be nice if they could confirm it when selected -- but even 
with lower contrast they can probably still read it once they already 
know what it says.  But either way, they can move off of it and read it  
- then move on to it and select it.

The alternative would be to require that it have enough contrast either 
way-- but then there might not be much difference between selected and 
not selected -- which would be more confusing and unusable for the 
person with low vision.

So I would say it was OK and in fact might be a better design than if it 
"selected" and "non-selected"  both met the contrast rules.      And I 
don't think it would technically fail the SC either.

Regards,
James

On 3/9/2016 7:51 AM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
> ØI’m not sure what you’d be raising a bug on though? The previous WG 
> response?
>
> Not specifically a bug – but an issue with the interpretation. That is 
> – I’d like another issue that overturns that decision.  That way when 
> this comes up – we can point to something that was discussed by the 
> working group.
>
> ØPerhaps undoing that means adding some text to the understanding page 
> for 1.4.3/1.4.6 to make clear it applies to visible transitory states 
> (e.g. focus & hover).
>
> Yes, some text in the non-normative understanding documents would be 
> preferred.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
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> *From:*Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 09, 2016 3:54 AM
> *To:* Jonathan Avila; GLWAI Guidelines WG org
> *Subject:* Re: Transient states
>
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> I agree, the normative text doesn’t appear to make an exception for 
> interactive or transitory states. (I was one of the people surprised 
> by the previous response.)
>
> I’m not sure what you’d be raising a bug on though? The previous WG 
> response?
>
> Perhaps undoing that means adding some text to the understanding page 
> for 1.4.3/1.4.6 to make clear it applies to visible transitory states 
> (e.g. focus & hover).
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
>
> *From: *Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com 
> <mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 8 March 2016 at 18:00
> *To: *Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com 
> <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>, GLWAI Guidelines WG org 
> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> *Subject: *RE: Transient states
>
> Alastair, thank you for bringing this up.
>
> While I can certainly understand the active state not being covered as 
> it occurs between when the user performs the action and when the 
> action occurs – focus states occur when the user tabs to an element 
> and thus this is likely to be an issue for users who rely on the 
> keyboard. Since we are talking about the contrast of text here – and 
> the text is not inactive – I don’t understand how SC 1.4.3 and 1.4.6 
> do not apply.
>
> The focus and hover state do not appear to fall under the Incidental 
> clause: Text or images of text that are part of an inactive user 
> interface component, that are pure decoration, that are not visible to 
> anyone, or that are part of a picture that contains significant other 
> visual content, have no contrast requirement.
>
> Unless someone can point me to an documented normative exception for 
> this I’ll be opening an new issue at minimum for the focus state.
>
> Jonathan
>
> *From:*Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 08, 2016 9:05 AM
> *To:* GLWAI Guidelines WG org
> *Subject:* Transient states
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> There was an item last week on defining ‘transient states’ with 
> regards to this:
>
> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/157
>
> The whole point may be moot now as Makoto Ueki pointed out that the 
> group responded on this here:
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2014Feb/0039.html 
>
>
> So historically focus/hover/activate states are */not/ *covered by 
> colour contrast in SC 1.4.3. That surprised a few people.
>
> In case this gets re-visited I tried to find a way of differentiating 
> transient states (such as hover) from /really/ transient states (such 
> as active).
>
> In W3C terms these are generally referenced as 'Dynamic 
> pseudo-classes’ and within those, 'user action pseudo-classes', but 
> they are not defined by their timing element, and there is no 
> differentiation from the CSS/HTML spec (that I can find). Both CSS and 
> WCAG should apply across platforms, so definitions are difficult.
>
> The closest thing is 'formal activation state’ in the WhatWG doc here:
>
> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/scripting.html#in-a-formal-activation-state
>
> "An element is said to be in a *formal activation state* between the 
> time the user begins to indicate an intent to trigger the element's 
> activation behaviour"
>
> So there is a potential avenue, but as I noted above, the point may be 
> moot if none of them are covered.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
>

-- 
Regards, James

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