RE: 1.3.1 question

Mike,

I appreciate you sending this out. I had originally replied to the emails regarding 1.3.1 and landmarks about the use of landmarks/regions and their labeling  as a way to meet 1.3.2 (by these defining and providing a meaningful sequence to the page/information structure) as this was something I ran into and had be asked about.
Since it is not listed in WCAG 2.0 1.3.2 and I agree that 1.3.2 can be subjective, I thought it warranted a question to the team.

Best. 

Alan

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Mike Elledge
Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 9:37 AM
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick; Patrick H. Lauke; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Re: 1.3.1 question

Hi All--

I'd like to understand better how persons who use screen readers feel about this issue. With WebAIM surveys indicating increased use of headings and regions I worry that we may be underestimating their benefit. I recognize that the application of 1.3.2 can be subjective, that flexibility in presenting data is important, and that bringing legacy applications into compliance can be time-consuming. Ultimately our objective has to be how to best serve the needs of users, however.

Thoughts?

Mike

On Monday, April 4, 2016 8:21 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:

Patrick,
Thanks for chiming in, and welcome to the group!

Thanks of course to everyone who is contributing their opinions here, I’m just singling Patrick out as he just joined the WG two hours ago… :)

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility and Standards
Adobe 

akirkpat@adobe.com
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility






On 4/4/16, 06:54, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote:

>Apologies for jumping straight in here after only having been officially 
>nominated/joined...but as this whole discussion around 1.3.1 was the 
>trigger that made me officially join, here's what I've just sent as 
>comment to the survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/5April2016_misc/
>
>(with further apologies as this was probably already 
>touched-on/discussed here):
>
>Landmarks are not required. "Landmarks are *a* technique to provide 
>information/structure. They cannot be required (nor can any other 
>specific technique/implementation) as at the time WCAG 2.0 was 
>formalised they weren't even in existence/supported, to my knowledge. 
>Claiming they are would retrospectively fail sites that up until now 
>passed on this point.
>
>More generally, in my view there is no hard requirement to always having 
>to identify landmarks on every single page, in every single document. 
>Key here is "information important for comprehension will be perceivable 
>to all". Is every instance of a fairly clearly defined footer (perhaps 
>with a heading, a list of links to Ts&Cs, privacy policy, a copyright 
>notice) completely non-understandable to a user who cannot perceive its 
>styling? Will real users be confused by a lack of <footer> element or 
>relevant ARIA role? Further, is a role="region" (another sufficient 
>technique for 1.3.1) then NOT acceptable compared to role="contentinfo"?
>
>IF you determine that it is important to identify explicitly which part 
>of the page is the header, which is the footer, which is the main; IF 
>you don't deem it understandable enough for real users if these are 
>simply happening sequentially; IF you deem the structure of the overall 
>page so complex that a real user who can't visually perceive the page 
>structure would be confused/unable to understand it otherwise; THEN 
>something needs to be in place that further clarifies this structure. 
>you can choose aria landmarks, or aria regions, or headings, or some 
>other implementation that may not have even been dreamed up/documented 
>in the non-normative techniques document. the HOW is not important. what 
>matters is the end result: will a real user be less confused / 
>understand the overall structure of the page better than before. jumping 
>from this to "WCAG requires aria landmarks" is reaching.
>
>P
>-- 
>Patrick H. Lauke
>
>www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
>http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
>twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>