Re: CfC: Checkbox and Radio button labels and 1.3.1

When you have a checkbox and a label next to each other and these are visually and semantically coupled  AND your technology offers tried and proven ways to explicitly encode that info relationship I still do not see how a failure to do so is not failing SC 1.3.1. 
The logical reasoning about proper WCAG failures that must fail under all circumstances and for all accessibility baselines ultimately serves to water down sensible requirements and lower the bar for implementations to the point where the bar lies flat on the ground. This reasoning ultimately rest on the fact that repair behaviours of AT exist that will guess the relationship even from the weak association (checkbox and text in the same p Element that Andrew suggested as still not failing. 
I think WCAG should rest on checking proper use of determining explicit programmatic relationships where technologies allow these to be formed. I.e. according to standards, not according to what you might get away with in terms of AT repair behaviour.
Detlev
Ps. I get the argument about past conformance audits not being in line with changed requirements, but every audit is made at a point in time and really valid for that point only anyway - both site content and tech changes rapidly.

Sent from phone

> Am 05.12.2015 um 01:45 schrieb Paul Adam <paul.adam@deque.com>:
> 
> All modern screen readers determine aria-labelledby properly, if not let’s file a bug report. 
> 
> aria-labelledby is an explicit association between an element and the id of another element whereas a checkbox and a text string inside the same paragraph have no explicit association and I don’t see how they could have a relationship just because they’re in the same paragraph. I understand that passes for link purpose in context but I didn’t think for info and relationships? 
> 
> Does that mean that form inputs with error messages below the input or input format instructions don’t really need to be associated with the error and info strings? They can just be in the same paragraph? Or in close proximity? 
> 
> I did not think that you could claim WCAG conformance based on how good of a guesser a particular screen reader is. I know that JAWS does lots of guessing and VoiceOver does some as well whereas NVDA does not. 
> 
> I really hope we’re not promoting that these methods can pass WCAG!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist 
> www.deque.com
> 
>> On Dec 4, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Paul,
>> When using aria-labelledby which screen readers can determine the label of the checkbox?  Which ones determine this properly?  Of course, not all do (yet) and the way that you determine is to test it.
>> 
>> Does the less-than-ideal code I suggested pass with all user agents?  Undoubtedly not.  Does it pass with some?  Yes, and if those are the user agents that I use to base my accessibility support claim then that would be how I’d justify the pass.  
>> 
>> The relationship can be implicit as well as explicit and I believe that also includes the case where you have:
>> 
>> <input type=“checkbox” title=“Please send me a ton of email”> Please send me a ton of email
>> 
>> I’ll re-emphasize that there is no doubt that using the explicit approaches are better, but the thinking expressed on the call I believe was that even though the other approaches are not as good that we can’t state that they fail.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> AWK
>> 
>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>> Adobe 
>> 
>> akirkpat@adobe.com
>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>> 
>> From: "paul.adam@deque.com"
>> Date: Friday, December 4, 2015 at 16:55
>> To: Andrew Kirkpatrick
>> Cc: "josh@interaccess.ie", Detlev Fischer, David MacDonald, Makoto UEKI, WCAG
>> Subject: Re: CfC: Checkbox and Radio button labels and 1.3.1
>> 
>> Hi Andrew, no this does not make sense to me.
>> 
>> <PastedGraphic-2.png>
>> 
>> <p><input type=“checkbox”> Please send me a ton of email</p>
>> 
>> You’re saying that this passes info and relationships? Because they’re in the same paragraph? It passes in screen readers that can guess the label of the checkbox? Which ones guess properly? 
>> 
>> I’m not saying that WCAG requires the code to be written in a specific way, I’m saying that it requires the relationship association and I don’t see how a title attribute that duplicates the visible label text or a checkbox inside the same paragraph as the visible label text counts as a relationship association. 
>> 
>> Thank you all for discussing the issue!
>> 
>> Paul J. Adam
>> Accessibility Evangelist 
>> www.deque.com
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 4, 2015, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:
>> 
>> In the instance of a control that is implicitly associated with a label that may even meet 1.3.1 as well as 4.1.2 through the implicit means:
>> <p><input type=“checkbox”> Please send me a ton of email</p>
>> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2015, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Does this make sense to you?  Others?
>> 
>> <PastedGraphic-2.png>
>