Re: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header

On 1 Jul 2015, at 23:55, David MacDonald wrote:

> Tests I've done in recent years didn't come up with any advantage to 
> adding
> scope row or scope of column... Has anybody found any design 
> situations
> when recent versions of JAWS or NVDA have any trouble when the scope 
> on the
> row or column header.
>
> In the old days it was necessary because moving from the second row up 
> to
> the first column header row would cause the screen reader to read 
> every
> <th> to the left of the cell....

Hi David,

We had people in EO WG using the tables with current Jaws and NVDA and 
they
reported an increase in accessibility when using scope. Especially the 
problem you describe, reading multiple <th> was an issue.

We agreed to use scope and recommend people to use scope on most tables 
to avoid ambiguity. The tutorials need convey clear actionable 
accessibility instructions that are easy to follow. If people need to 
think a lot about how to approach something, they’ll likely do what is 
less effort and/or complexity.

Best,
Eric

>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Avila 
> <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
>> From the HTML5 Spec
>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-th-element>
>>
>> The row keyword, which maps to the row state
>>
>> The row state means the header cell applies to some of the subsequent
>> cells in the same row(s).
>>
>>
>>
>> From HTML 4.01 Tables Section
>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html>
>>
>> row: The current cell provides header information for the rest of the 
>> row
>> that contains it (see also the section on table directionality).
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jonathan Avila
>>
>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>
>> SSB BART Group
>>
>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>>
>> Phone 703.637.8957
>>
>> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hoffman, Allen [mailto:allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:19 AM
>> To: Jonathan Avila; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the HTML specification for scope clear on the applicability of 
>> =row
>> only pointing right?  Is it differently scoped in HTML4 vs. 5?  Can 
>> you
>> point to it?  Interesting stuff for sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Allen Hoffman
>>
>> Deputy Executive Director
>>
>> The Office of Accessible Systems & Technology Department of Homeland
>> Security
>>
>> 202-447-0503 (voice)
>>
>> allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> DHS Accessibility Helpdesk
>>
>> 202-447-0440 (voice)
>>
>> 202-447-0582 (fax)
>>
>> 202-447-5857 (TTY)
>>
>> accessibility@dhs.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> This communication, along with any attachments, is covered by federal 
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>> sensitive and
>> legally privileged information. If the reader of this message is not 
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>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>> <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>]
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:13 AM
>>
>> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>
>> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>>
>>
>>
>> There are just some situations where no cell acts as a row header.  
>> In
>> these situations there is no header cell and thus no need to indicate 
>> a row
>> header.  Also of important note is the fact that the scope="row" 
>> attribute
>> only applies to subsequent cells.  Thus, if scope = row is applied to 
>> cells
>> in a header column such as the 3rd column then by definition in the 
>> HTML
>> specification it does not apply cells in the columns before it.  This 
>> can
>> be problematic in that it forces developers to organize columns in a
>> certain way or forces developers to use ids and headers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also of confusion in the tutorial is the use of scope in examples 
>> with ids
>> and headers.  There is no advice on whether use of scope alongside 
>> ids and
>> headers is wrong or required.
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/multi-level/
>>
>> The tutorial also incorrectly states "By using the row value for 
>> scope
>> assigns the header cells in the second column to data cells on the 
>> left and
>> the right of the individual header cell."  When in fact it only 
>> applies to
>> the right in LTR languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do agree, it would be great to give clear guidance on when scope of 
>> row
>> is required and not and what to do with header columns that are not 
>> in the
>> first column as well as issues with using scope and id/headers 
>> together.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jonathan Avila
>>
>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>
>> SSB BART Group
>>
>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>>
>> Phone 703.637.8957
>>
>> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com
>> <spanchang02@yahoo.com>]
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 7:41 AM
>>
>> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>
>> Subject: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is an appeal: please reconsider the need to  single out "Tables 
>> with
>> one header " as a separate category of simple tables in the tutorial 
>> [1].
>> If retained, revise the situations where they are suitable and the
>> corresponding examples.
>>
>> A simple data table must have both row and column headers marked up. 
>> There
>> are perhaps very specific instances when this is not the case:
>>
>> e.g. 1: A calendar grid typically has a row containing days of week
>> (column headers) and no row header column.
>>
>> e.g. 2: The first column of a two-column data table has row 
>> identifiers or
>> row headers. The table  may be devoid of a column header row.
>>
>>
>>
>> The smallness of a  table with data itself being distinctly different 
>> in
>> each column as stated in the tutorial [1] does not justify absence of 
>> row
>> headers for those tables.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still looking for answers posed in my emails below:
>>
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0041.html
>>
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0033.html
>>
>> [1] http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/one-header/
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sailesh Panchang
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>




--

Eric Eggert
Web Accessibility Specialist
Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C)