RE: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

Hi James

When I tested, it had exactly the type of trouble Sailesh described, and
I've come across this sometimes when working with clients, results here 
http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 
Scroll down to the bottom.

I'd be interested on what others find. On the table without scope, place
your cursor in a cell outside a row or column header (ctl+alt+arrow). Then
move focus into the column or row header. All the column header cells to the
left read as headers for the column header. Same thing happens when focused
is moved into the row headers. All the row headers above read as headers for
the row header. This I  problem.

I checked the API. In aViewer, each <th> is reported to the accessibility
API as a table header, but the <td>s do not report a related <th>, so when
and how to report related headers is a choice that is made by each AT. 

NVDA and VoiceOver do not do what JAWS does, so some may argue that this
behaviour with table headers is a JAWS bug. But I'm not sure I would say
that. I'd say, in general, JAWS has better table functionality than other
screen readers. Given that there is no scope, why shouldn't AT assume that
every column <th> to the left of a <th> is a row header for it. Anyway that
is a worthwhile discussion for us to have about whether we want to consider
it a bug or not, but I don't think there is much question about whether it
happens or not for JAWS. 

My results are as follows:
JAWS 14.0.6005 and IE 10.09 
First table reads well. The navigation using standard table navigation
techniques. 
Second table Did not read well, in that, when I navigated into the a column
header all the other table headers to the left read
When I navigated into a row header the row headers above it read, which is
confusing an inaccurate.

JAWS 14.0.6005 Firefox 24
First table h3 headings reads well. The navigation using standard table
navigation techniques. 
Second table. Did not read well, when I navigated into the a column header
all the other table headers to the left read
When I navigated into a row header the row headers above it read, which is
confusing an inaccurate.

Cheers,
David MacDonald

CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
www.Can-Adapt.com
   
  Adapting the web to all users
            Including those with disabilities

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-----Original Message-----
From: james nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com] 
Sent: October 21, 2013 2:29 PM
To: David MacDonald
Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

David,
I meant H51 not H63 - sorry.
It was my understanding that Sailesh is proposing that scope be added even
for the simplest tables. I find this unnecessary. If you take the following
example - this works absolutely fine in JAWS and FF. It is only when tables
get more complex (i.e. when row and column headers are not in the first
column and row of the table) when scope becomes necessary.

<table border="1">
   <caption>Contact Information</caption>
   <tbody><tr>

     <th>Name</th>
     <th>Phone#</th>
     <th>Fax#</th>
     <th>City</th>
   </tr><tr>

     <th>Joel Garner</th>
     <td>412-212-5421</td>
     <td>412-212-5400</td>
     <td>Pittsburgh</td>
   </tr><tr>

     <th>Clive Lloyd</th>
     <td>410-306-1420</td>
     <td>410-306-5400</td>
     <td>Baltimore</td>
   </tr><tr>

     <th>Gordon Greenidge</th>
     <td>281-564-6720</td>
     <td>281-511-6600</td>
     <td>Houston</td>
   </tr>
</tbody></table>

Regards,
James


On 10/19/2013 10:10 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
> PS
> Note, the tweaked table and added h63 test is here:
> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html
> =============
> Not sure I understand the question James... I don't think anyone is 
> proposing this table for any of our techniques... it is simply a test 
> table...
>
> I had several action items.
> 1) Check hx in a table
> 2) Check what is reported to an API when there are two level of <th>
> 3) Check the behaviour with and without the scope
> 4) Check what AT reads two layers of table <th>without ids, headers
>
> Sailesh produced a table for the tests which I tweaked to make it 
> validate and tested using my full morning to do so.
> I think h63 was a smaller part of the discussion as I understand it.
> But just for thoroughness I have done the same test with h63 example 
> code, and have added it to the page, as well as the results of the
testing.
> In JAWS the scope is necessary to prevent all the row headers above a 
> row header from being read hen tabbing into the row header column, and 
> the same for column headers. This appears to be behaviour just in JAWS 
> and not in NVDA, or Voice Over.
>
> I hope that these tests fulfill my action items, and informs the group
> regarding:
>
> 1) the outstanding issue of <hx> headings in a table
> 2) recommendations about the necessity or non-necessity of scope on 
> simple tables
> 3) the question about two lawyers of headings reading fine in both 
> JAWS and NVDA without headers and ids
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> Tel:  613.235.4902
> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>     
>    Adapting the web to all users
>              Including those with disabilities
>
> This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Any distribution, 
> use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other 
> than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you are not the 
> intended recipient, please notify me at the telephone number shown 
> above or by return e-mail and delete this communication and any copy
immediately. Thank you.
>
> Le présent courriel a été expédié par CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Toute 
> distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel ou des 
> renseignements qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son 
> destinataire prévu est interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par 
> erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par 
> courriel, puis supprimer sans délai la version originale de la 
> communication ainsi que toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre
collaboration.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
> Sent: October 19, 2013 12:11 PM
> To: David MacDonald
> Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; 
> kirsten@can-adapt.com
> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>
> If we are discussing modifying H63 to include scope shouldn't we use a 
> simpler table than the example (one without these extra H3 cells in 
> the table)?
>
> Regards,
> James
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2013, at 8:55 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
>
>> Hi Sailesh and all
>>
>> I tested the table with NVDA, VoiceOver and Jaws and updated results 
>> after the tables on the page below.
>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.ht
>>
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: October 17, 2013 11:21 PM
>> To: WCAG; Joshue O Connor
>> Subject: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>>
>> Survey items #9 and 11::
>> The comments in May 2013  were primarily influenced because of better 
>> support for the scope attribute by JAWS and NVDA.
>> NVDA 2012 like JAWS read all cells marked up as TH to the left of 
>> current cell (in column header rows) and all cells marked up as TH 
>> above current cell for row header cells. (NVDA 2013 does not do so
>> now) And I was using an older version of FF in April / May.
>> Hence changes were suggested to H63 and H51 (survey items 9 and 11.
>> This comment was never submitted as a new technique but suggested a 
>> few changes to the existing technique.
>> Representing it as a new technique in the survey is not appropriate.
>> For H63 survey item#9: The example refers to a 'published schedule'
>> but the code that follows that is a contact info table.
>> That contact Info table is from a link of the Resources page for H63.
>> Here is a link to tables marked up with TH with and without the scope 
>> attribute.
>> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table_scopeDemo.htm
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sailesh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Received on Tuesday, 22 October 2013 12:11:14 UTC