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Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

From: james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:28:57 -0700
Message-ID: <52657269.40601@oracle.com>
To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
CC: "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, kirsten@can-adapt.com
David,
I meant H51 not H63 - sorry.
It was my understanding that Sailesh is proposing that scope be added 
even for the simplest tables. I find this unnecessary. If you take the 
following example - this works absolutely fine in JAWS and FF. It is 
only when tables get more complex (i.e. when row and column headers are 
not in the first column and row of the table) when scope becomes necessary.

<table border="1">
   <caption>Contact Information</caption>
   <tbody><tr>

     <th>Name</th>
     <th>Phone#</th>
     <th>Fax#</th>
     <th>City</th>
   </tr><tr>

     <th>Joel Garner</th>
     <td>412-212-5421</td>
     <td>412-212-5400</td>
     <td>Pittsburgh</td>
   </tr><tr>

     <th>Clive Lloyd</th>
     <td>410-306-1420</td>
     <td>410-306-5400</td>
     <td>Baltimore</td>
   </tr><tr>

     <th>Gordon Greenidge</th>
     <td>281-564-6720</td>
     <td>281-511-6600</td>
     <td>Houston</td>
   </tr>
</tbody></table>

Regards,
James


On 10/19/2013 10:10 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
> PS
> Note, the tweaked table and added h63 test is here:
> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html
> =============
> Not sure I understand the question James... I don't think anyone is
> proposing this table for any of our techniques... it is simply a test
> table...
>
> I had several action items.
> 1) Check hx in a table
> 2) Check what is reported to an API when there are two level of <th>
> 3) Check the behaviour with and without the scope
> 4) Check what AT reads two layers of table <th>without ids, headers
>
> Sailesh produced a table for the tests which I tweaked to make it validate
> and tested using my full morning to do so.
> I think h63 was a smaller part of the discussion as I understand it.
> But just for thoroughness I have done the same test with h63 example code,
> and have added it to the page, as well as the results of the testing.
> In JAWS the scope is necessary to prevent all the row headers above a row
> header from being read hen tabbing into the row header column, and the same
> for column headers. This appears to be behaviour just in JAWS and not in
> NVDA, or Voice Over.
>
> I hope that these tests fulfill my action items, and informs the group
> regarding:
>
> 1) the outstanding issue of <hx> headings in a table
> 2) recommendations about the necessity or non-necessity of scope on simple
> tables
> 3) the question about two lawyers of headings reading fine in both JAWS and
> NVDA without headers and ids
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> Tel:  613.235.4902
> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>     
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
> Sent: October 19, 2013 12:11 PM
> To: David MacDonald
> Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>
> If we are discussing modifying H63 to include scope shouldn't we use a
> simpler table than the example (one without these extra H3 cells in the
> table)?
>
> Regards,
> James
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2013, at 8:55 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sailesh and all
>>
>> I tested the table with NVDA, VoiceOver and Jaws and updated results
>> after the tables on the page below.
>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.ht
>>
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: October 17, 2013 11:21 PM
>> To: WCAG; Joshue O Connor
>> Subject: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>>
>> Survey items #9 and 11::
>> The comments in May 2013  were primarily influenced because of better
>> support for the scope attribute by JAWS and NVDA.
>> NVDA 2012 like JAWS read all cells marked up as TH to the left of
>> current cell (in column header rows) and all cells marked up as TH
>> above current cell for row header cells. (NVDA 2013 does not do so
>> now) And I was using an older version of FF in April / May.
>> Hence changes were suggested to H63 and H51 (survey items 9 and 11.
>> This comment was never submitted as a new technique but suggested a
>> few changes to the existing technique.
>> Representing it as a new technique in the survey is not appropriate.
>> For H63 survey item#9: The example refers to a 'published schedule'
>> but the code that follows that is a contact info table.
>> That contact Info table is from a link of the Resources page for H63.
>> Here is a link to tables marked up with TH with and without the scope
>> attribute.
>> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table_scopeDemo.htm
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sailesh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Received on Monday, 21 October 2013 18:29:40 UTC

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