- From: Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com>
- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:45:15 -0700
- To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
- CC: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <51CCA45B.4090603@oracle.com>
David, Is 1.4.4 invalidated? No. It is just met automatically most of the time (by pretty universal user-agent zoom), and responsible authors check to make sure they didn't break it (and it can be broken - e.g. with embedded content rendered by plug-ins, etc.). What is being discussed, I think, is the first step toward 1.4.2 being met automatically most of the time, through the possible creation of a success technique that works today - in a more cumbersome way than would be ideal (though arguably no MORE cumbersome than on existing web pages) - on two OS releases. Regards, Peter On 6/27/2013 1:16 PM, David MacDonald wrote: > Aren't we just basically invalidating 1.4.2 and letting authors say > "it's not my problem my music bugs you, learn your os? I'm not > convinced ... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2013-06-27, at 2:11 PM, Loretta Guarino Reid > <lorettaguarino@google.com <mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com>> wrote: > > Just a few opinions from me: > 1. I think there is probably no reason this couldn't be a sufficient > technique, with the usual accessibility support caveats > 2. Publishing it as a WCAG technique only helps in making authors more > aware of it. It does not help with the problem of how to reach end > users who would be expected to know about this setting. > 3. Do we really think that documenting this particular technique, > which has the issues that have been discussed, is a more important use > of our time than all of the other potential work the WG has before us? > (That said, we've probably spent more time discussing it than it would > take to write it up.) > > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com > <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote: > > Colleagues (and especially Gregg), > > Given the note from Christophe below pointing out that we have a > second desktop OS that offers this functionality (Linux with > GNOME), and a message earlier today from Ramón Corominas pointing > out that we have techniques for PDF accessibility that appear to > only work on a single platform (Windows), I find myself wondering > if there we aren't being consistent in when WCAG may publish a > technique for meeting a success criteria. > > It seems to me the argument now boils down to "too few users know > about this option" (since the argument "this option isn't > available in enough places" doesn't seem to have prevented PDF > techniques). > > If that is the case, then wouldn't publishing a technique - which > made clear it required recent versions of Windows and/or GNOME - > BE a way of getting more publicity for this? And wouldn't it BE a > way to better bring it to the attention of user agent & platform > creators? > > > Regards, > > Peter > > On 6/27/2013 7:57 AM, Christophe Strobbe wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Am Do, 27.06.2013, 07:02 schrieb Peter Korn: >>> David, >>> >>> I started this thread after reading a computer advice columnist describe >>> this feature to a supplicant who was complaining about websites >>> automatically playing sounds/music, which interfered with his enjoyment >>> of the music he was already playing from some other (non-web) app. And >>> I realized... we have a potential electronic curb cut here! >>> >>> So I brought it to this group seeking discussion and insights - which >>> I've received! >>> >>> >>> And if I may summarize the discussion/insights: >>> >>> * Technically this is a way to meet this SC (assuming you are running >>> on Windows 7 or some other OS that offers this feature) >>> * Some are dubious this would be approved as a formal WCAG technique, >>> for several different reasons >>> * Some like this approach as it offers a single choke point vs. the >>> work that every web page author would have to do >>> >>> >>> My own sense is that this functionality would be worth advertising more >>> widely, so folks knew about it, >> The "technique" is listed in "Better Web Browsing: Tips for Customizing >> Your Computer" at<http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/browsing#volume> <http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/browsing#volume>. The link >> related to Windows 7 points to a Microsoft webpage with a video that also >> shows the mixer. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Christophe >> >> PS: GNOME's sound volume also allows you to set the volume on an >> application basis, but the Applications tab on the sound settings dialog >> only displays applications that are currently rendering sound. See the >> screen shots at >> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl#User_Experience> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl#User_Experience>. I >> did a quick test with Firefox and YouTube on Fedora 18, set the volume for >> Firefox to a much lower volume than overall system volume, and the system >> seemed to remember the Firefox volume both after restarting the browser >> and after restarting the OS. >> >> >>> and we gained some more experience with >>> users using it - and then the extent to which they liked/disliked it. >>> More OSes might be persuaded to offer functionality like this. User >>> agents might be persuaded to offer this functionality directly. And >>> both OSes and user agents might find ways to offer the functionality >>> with fewer steps. >>> >>> And then somewhere along the continuum of these potential user agent / >>> platform improvements, it might be sufficiently widespread and >>> sufficiently easy that there would be little objection to adding this as >>> a sufficient technique, similar to how we treat browser zoom. >>> >>> >>> Because doing this once and easily in a single place has got to be >>> preferable to every audio-playing browser page implementing it in their >>> own way... >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> On 6/26/2013 6:17 PM, David MacDonald wrote: >>>> Hi Peter >>>> >>>> 1.4.4 language came after many iterations ... I would probably be >>>> loath to hold it up as a jumping off precedent... >>>> >>>> the techniques for 1.4.4 are about “not interfering” with the browsers >>>> natural ability to zoom... there is no advice to users, except in an >>>> indirect way ... it’s to the authors... >>>> >>>> Perhaps we could create a failure if authors interfere with the OS >>>> natural ability to turn down the volume of the browser like we do in >>>> 1.4.4... but it leaves me scratching my head. >>>> >>>> I’m probably coming to this discussion a bit late, and I’m not sure >>>> what problem that we are trying to solve with these contortions... >>>> perhaps there is some good reason... if so perhaps I’ll join in the >>>> “contorting” after a June 30 deadlines... >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> David MacDonald >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> *Can**Adapt**Solutions Inc.*// >>>> >>>> /Adapting the web to *all* users/ >>>> >>>> /Including those with disabilities/ >>>> >>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.Can-Adapt.com> <http://www.can-adapt.com/> <http://www.can-adapt.com/> >>>> >>>> *From:*Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com] >>>> *Sent:* June-26-13 6:36 PM >>>> *To:* David MacDonald >>>> *Cc:*james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>; 'Adam Solomon'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; >>>> 'WCAG';kirsten@can-adapt.com <mailto:kirsten@can-adapt.com> >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on >>>> Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you? >>>> >>>> David, >>>> >>>> I'm curious - how is this "user technique" of the user turning down or >>>> muting the volume of their user agent in their OS any different from >>>> another "user technique" of the user having their web user agent >>>> enlarge the content on a web page (as a mechanism for meeting SC 1.4.4 >>>> Resize Text)? >>>> >>>> In other words, how is G142: Using a technology that has >>>> commonly-available user agents that support zoom >>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G142> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G142> any >>>> different form a potential technique like: "Using a technology that >>>> can independently adjust or mute user agent volume levels"? >>>> >>>> >>>> Both are "user techniques" rather than "authoring techniques". And >>>> both tend to always work (though both should be tested; I can imagine >>>> some hacky ways of bypassing OS-level volume settings using downloaded >>>> native code). >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> On 6/26/2013 3:10 PM, David MacDonald wrote: >>>> >>>> Right you are James, >>>> >>>> It’s down an extra layer in the mixer, so this volume would have >>>> to be off before the person starts surfing. No way to get to it >>>> with music playing. >>>> >>>> It is not so much an authoring technique, it is a user technique, >>>> and we generally don’t get into telling folks how to use their own >>>> technology, although we have a few examples in the techniques, of >>>> user agent notes with JAWS commands... >>>> >>>> But I think we need a bright line between Authoring techniques for >>>> our “Authoring Guidelines” and strategies for users... the latter >>>> is not an authoring technique which is our mandate. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> David MacDonald >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> *Can**Adapt**Solutions Inc.* >>>> >>>> /Adapting the web to *all* users/ >>>> >>>> /Including those with disabilities/ >>>> >>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.Can-Adapt.com> <http://www.can-adapt.com/> <http://www.can-adapt.com/> >>>> >>>> *From:*james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> >>>> [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com] >>>> *Sent:* June-26-13 5:13 PM >>>> *To:* David MacDonald >>>> *Cc:* Adam Solomon; Gregg Vanderheiden; Peter Korn; WCAG; >>>> kirsten@can-adapt.com <mailto:kirsten@can-adapt.com> <mailto:kirsten@can-adapt.com> <mailto:kirsten@can-adapt.com> >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by >>>> relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do >>>> it for you? >>>> >>>> On my version of windows 7 I can reduce the volume of Firefox/ie >>>> without reducing my jaws volume. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 14:07, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> >>>> <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I just checked this... it turns off the Screen Reader also, so >>>> no I would say not. >>>> >>>> The whole point is so the screen reader can be hear without >>>> music drowning it out. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> David MacDonald >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> *Can**Adapt**Solutions Inc.* >>>> >>>> /Adapting the web to *all* users/ >>>> >>>> /Including those with disabilities/ >>>> >>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.Can-Adapt.com> <http://www.can-adapt.com/> <http://www.can-adapt.com/> >>>> >>>> *From:*Adam Solomon [mailto:adam.solomon2@gmail.com] >>>> *Sent:* June-26-13 4:40 PM >>>> *To:* Gregg Vanderheiden >>>> *Cc:* Peter Korn; WCAG >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by >>>> relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) >>>> to do it for you? >>>> >>>> Would it not be sufficient to be in an environment where one >>>> has access to, but is not limited to windows 7? We have >>>> considered techniques that have support only in certain >>>> browsers, especially the infamous "headers technique" relying >>>> on a plugin. With regard to web technology I believe we have >>>> said in the meetings that support for a certain technique does >>>> not have to be across the board. Is an operating system >>>> different in this regard? >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden >>>> <gv@trace.wisc.edu <mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu> <mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu> <mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes that would be a technique if you are in an environment >>>> that guarantees that only Windows 7 (or whatever versions) are >>>> used by people viewing the web page. Not sure how you would >>>> enforce that. Otherwise it would not work. >>>> >>>> So we couldn’t list it as a sufficient tech I wouldn’t think. >>>> >>>> /Gregg/ >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D. >>>> Director Trace R&D Center >>>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering >>>> and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison >>>> >>>> Technical Director - Cloud4all Project -http://Cloud4all.info >>>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - >>>> http://Raisingthefloor.org >>>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project - >>>> http://GPII.net >>>> >>>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:39 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com> >>>> <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com> <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I was recently reminded that Windows 7 (and perhaps >>>> earlier) has a nice feature in the "Volume Mixer" panel, >>>> which provides support for independent, per-application >>>> setting of the volume level (including per-application >>>> muting). This specifically allows me to turn down or off >>>> the volume of all audio coming from my web user agent. >>>> >>>> Would you agree that this would be "a mechanism [that] is >>>> available to control audio volume independently from the >>>> overall system volume level", such that web pages/apps >>>> running on Windows 7 could automatically meet SC 1.4.2 >>>> Audio Control? >>>> >>>> If so, is this perhaps a potential new success technique >>>> for us? Something like "Running on a platform or user >>>> agent that allows the volume level to be adjusted or muted >>>> either by the user agent or on a per-application basis"? >>>> >>>> >>>> On the other hand... would doing this effectively prevent >>>> the use of cloud-based AT? If I'm not mistaken, we >>>> typically haven't done a lot in our techniques that >>>> contemplates web-delivered/cloud-based AT... >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> -- >>>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif><http://www.oracle.com/> <http://www.oracle.com/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>>> Phone:+1 650 5069522 <tel:%2B1%20650%205069522> <tel:+1%20650%205069522> >>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 >>>> >>>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> >>>> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to >>>> developing practices and products that help protect the >>>> environment >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Oracle<http://www.oracle.com> <http://www.oracle.com> >>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>>> Phone:+1 650 5069522 <tel:%2B1%20650%205069522> <tel:+1%20650%205069522> >>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 >>>> Green Oracle<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to >>>> developing practices and products that help protect the environment >>>> >>> -- >>> Oracle<http://www.oracle.com> <http://www.oracle.com> >>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>> Phone:+1 650 5069522 <tel:%2B1%20650%205069522> <tel:+1%20650%205069522> >>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 >>> Green Oracle<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to >>> developing practices and products that help protect the environment >>> > > -- > <oracle_sig_logo.gif> <http://www.oracle.com> > Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal > Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522> > 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 > <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> > Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help > protect the environment > > -- Oracle <http://www.oracle.com> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Received on Thursday, 27 June 2013 20:45:50 UTC