RE: HTML5 alternatives to table summary don't work in current browsers, and Screen Readers

Thanks Rich

 

Your hard work on this and your connections to implementers is invaluable.
Based on the existing examples, I think the following should be expected
behaviour when focus is placed on table. Screen Readers would:

 

Example 1 Aria describedby: focus on the table would read the caption
followed by describedby text.

Example 2 in caption: As current

Example 3 in caption wrapped in details: the summary element should read
with the word "collapsed, press enter to expand" or something similar

Example 4 in the figure element: Caption read followed by the figure text

Example 5: Same as above

 

Of course any of this is for discussion, but based on the oast behaviour of
the summary attribute, I think this would be expected.

 

Cheers

David MacDonald

 

CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

  Adapting the web to all users

            Including those with disabilities

 <http://www.can-adapt.com/> www.Can-Adapt.com

 

 

Cheers

David MacDonald

 

CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

  Adapting the web to all users

            Including those with disabilities

 <http://www.can-adapt.com/> www.Can-Adapt.com

 

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: June-21-13 6:39 PM
To: Charles McCathie Nevile
Cc: David MacDonald; kirsten@can-adapt.com; mick@nvaccess.org;
public-html-a11y@w3.org; 'Steve Faulkner'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Re: HTML5 alternatives to table summary don't work in current
browsers, and Screen Readers

 


Rich Schwerdtfeger

"Charles McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote on 06/21/2013
04:29:55 PM:

> From: "Charles McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org, 
> public-html-a11y@w3.org, "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>, 
> Cc: "'Steve Faulkner'" <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com>, 
> mick@nvaccess.org, kirsten@can-adapt.com
> Date: 06/21/2013 04:30 PM
> Subject: Re: HTML5 alternatives to table summary don't work in 
> current browsers, and  Screen Readers
> 
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:05:17 +0200, David MacDonald  
> <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Richard
> 
> > A small correction to your take on what I said in my post. I actually
did
> > not make a recommendation to return to table Summary. I am simply
> > documenting that as we enter into recommendation status, the advice we  
> > are providing to web authors fails WCAGs conformance requirement of
> > accessibility support. And the example techniques listed currently don't
> > help blind folks... even though web authors trust us to give them useful
> > advice.
> >
> > There are certainly well documented disadvantages (and advantages) to
the
> > Summary attribute but until AT catches up on replacements, and they have

> > had several years to do so, we are looking at another of those awful  
> > gaps that work on paper but not in the real world for blind folks.
> >
> > From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
> [...]
> >> Let's stick with a consistent set of APIs (ARIA) that developers can go

> >> to as much as possible for one stop shopping.
> >
> >> I have alerted Freedom Scientific of the defect and they will fix it.
> 
> Do you have some timeline for that?
> 
They are working on it as we speak. Beyond that I am not in a position to
share Freedom Scientific product release date. 

> >> I have copied Mick Curran at NVDA and hopefully they will also correct
> >> the problem with IE and Firefox.
> 
> In my experience the NVDA guys generally do a good job.
> 
yes they do. 

> [...]
> >> We can't be writing specs. based on proprietary assistive technology
> >> defects.
> 
> Actually, part of the HTML5 revolution was that instead of writing things

> that ought to work, we should be relying on what *does*.
> 
> The "proprietary technology" whose defects could derail us are the  
> fundamental products people are relying on. In the absence of viable  
> alternatives, and without fixing those products, we're not ready to claim

> that we have produced a spec that is actually useful to anybody.
> 
I appreciate that but this is a bug. We had one feature in ARIA that we
added for a work-around in a design flaw in JAWS that was fixed in JAWS. It
is something that I have regretted ever since. 

> That may only be a temporary setback, but the lesson of the past is that  
> temporary might last a generation (or their opportunity to get a useful  
> education). We should be careful about charging ahead and saying stuff  
> works, even while we don't want to try and stop real progress.
> 
Sure. If we have a bug though let's report it and get it fixed. That is
happening now and I am glad David reported it. In the future, if you have
bug with an AT over ARIA support please let me know directly. I may be able
to help. I don't always monitor this list. 

Best,
Rich

> cheers
> 
> Chaals
> 
> -- 
> Charles McCathie Nevile - Consultant (web standards) CTO Office, Yandex
>        chaals@yandex-team.ru         Find more at http://yandex.com
>