- From: Gez Lemon <gez.lemon@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:40:47 +0100
- To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Firstly, thank you to Gregg and John for allowing me to put forward my views on validity. I've listed the working group's rationale for moving validity to priority 2, preceded with WG:. My responses are preceded with GL:. WG: That well formedness and validity can benefit accessibility. However, forcing strict adherence to the specification can sometimes inhibit accessibility. GL: I fail to see how strict adherence inhibits accessibility. I assume this has come from the DHTML roadmap, where Becky's put forward an argument about not being able to use custom attributes. The simple solution is to use XHTML 1.1, and define the attributes, as that's what modular XHTML was meant for. I've read the counter-arguments that XHTML 1.1 "should not" [1] be served as application/xhtml+xml, and that all the time IE is the most dominant browser, that's not a feasible solution. I strongly advocate serving any version of XHTML as application/xhtml+xml, but in this particular case, I would think it was a lesser evil to deliver the content as text/html all the time that IE doesn't support the correct MIME type. The reason IE is in the powerful position it is is because everyone panders to it. It's a broken browser that can only handle text/html, so let it have text/html. Delivering XHTML as text/html definitely does not cause any accessibility problems. Delivering invalid content *may* cause accessibility problems. If none of that is acceptable, there's always the get out clause. WG: (Also, validity of any declared specification in and of itself doesn't guarantee accessibility because you could create your own specification and be valid to it.) GL: I also fail to see why this is a problem. If someone creates a custom DTD, you'll at least know the content is well-formed. This clause implies that the working group do not agree with modular XHTML. Modular XHTML is a great idea, as it does allow developers to add features that are not part of a public specification and remain valid. Someone could create a custom DTD and change the alt attribute to optional rather than required, but that's covered by another guideline. Any harm that could be done by creating a custom DTD should be covered by other guidelines, as the guidelines are meant to be broad enough to deal with *all* web content. WG: If forced to strictly use specifications you might be restricted from doing things you want to do that would not be harmful to accessibility. GL: Without using specifications correctly, there's a far higher risk of introducing errors that do affect accessibility. Sailesh has already put forward an argument about how id values that were not unique have caused an accessibility issue. The broken CMSs that we're trying to work around can also cause real accessibility barriers, too. I've seen cases where CMSs have produced attribute values where some of the text is quoted, sometimes making only part of the information available. Validity stops these types of errors, which do result in real accessibility barriers. Arguably, the group most effected by invalid documents are those with cognitive difficulties. Because of the incredible parsing capabilities of most modern user agents, most invalid documents are rendered okay. When an invalid document isn't rendered properly, the result can be difficult to decipher. WG: Current WYSIWYG and CMS tools do not necessarily generate valid code, making it difficult or impossible for many authors to meet this SC. (We cannot force authors to do manual coding to conform to WCAG.) GL: This isn't a reason *not to require* validity; it's a good reason *to require* validity. Pandering to broken tools just perpetuates the problems, and doesn't begin to resolve anything. The recommendations made by WCAG should be promoting best practice to take the pressure from user agents trying to decipher what's been given to them. If validity wasn't an issue, we would have better user agents as they wouldn't have to be so concerned with error correction. There are also plenty of tools that do allow valid markup. Requiring validity at priority 1 would encourage people to use tools that do generate valid markup, rather than propagating the problem. WG: There are very strong commercial pressures for tools to include features that are not strictly part of public specifications. GL: There are stronger social pressures not to pander to the commercial pressures, and the social pressures should be the primary focus of WCAG - people with disabilities. If tools absolutely must provide features that are not part of public specifications, then they should be using modular XHTML. Tools should be covered by ATAG, and WCAG should be providing techniques for better accessibility, rather than bending to commercial pressures. I appreciate you have to consider commercial issues for acceptance, but I can't help thinking that discrediting another W3C recommendation is like selling your soul. WG: We differentiate between well formedness and validity. Well formedness can benefit accessibility. Validity can benefit accessibility though there may be issues. Therefore, for now we have moved validity to level 2. We will also investigate well formedness and expand it at level 1. GL: An SGML language like HTML cannot be well-formed. Keeping validity at level 2, or removing it completely, gives a message that validity is not important for accessibility. Most people agree that whilst validity is no guarantee of accessible content, it definitely provides a solid foundation on which to build accessibility. Some arguments have been presented that valid documents may not be accessible, such as a data table that isn't marked up correctly. Being invalid wouldn't make it more accessible. That's the reason why the other 12 guidelines exist. I'm hoping to appeal to the software engineers amongst the working group: testability is a fundamental software engineering principle. If something is invalid, it cannot be tested, as the outcomes couldn't possibly be known. Most invalid documents are very invalid. Each error is compounded, and the permutations of what some people consider to be little errors become impossible to guarantee any outcome. No user-agent fully complies with UAAG. If user-agents didn't have to be so concerned with validity, there's a stronger chance that more would comply with other WAI recommendations. I appreciate that there's an enormous amount of invalid legacy content out there, and that nothing is going to change over night. My concern is that by trivialising validity, we're propagating the issue. Most of that invalid content will also contain accessibility barriers. A good starting point will be to get the content valid, and then tackle the accessibility. I could go on and on, but I would like someone to read it :-) Best regards, Gez [1] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2119.html -- _____________________________ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com
Received on Wednesday, 22 June 2005 23:40:52 UTC