- From: Slaydon, Eugenia <ESlaydon@beacontec.com>
- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:24:30 -0500
- To: "'gdeering@acslink.net.au'" <gdeering@acslink.net.au>, gian@stanleymilford.com.au, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
I have to disagree. It isn't always the case that the designers are unwilling to abandon pixel based designs. They have to deliver what the clients want. And in this day and age of huge, flash driven, moving pictures, animated navigation, etc., the clients are seeing and WANTING certain graphical looks. They also want them to work in multiple browsers. Even though most browsers are CSS capable - they don't handle it the same way. There are still what I consider severe limitations with CSS. You may lay something out beautifully with IE and have it totally unusable in NN or vice versa. I do agree that we should encourage designers to move their designs to a more accessible, liquid design approach. But we also have to realize that the clients control the ultimate result. Thanks, Eugenia Slaydon Lead Content Developer Beacon Technologies, Inc. 336-931-1295 ext. 225 -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:gdeering@acslink.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:33 PM To: gian@stanleymilford.com.au; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org Subject: RE: rationalize presentation [was: Use consistent presentation] I take your point, and I agree designers have an unwillingness to abandon their pixel based design tools for a more liquid based design approach, but I don't agree with you that markup has not progressed to the point of placing graphical navigation. Most analysis of current web logs shows a very very high percentage of CSS capable browsers (eg http://thecounter.com/stats/2002/January/browser.php). So designers should know that most people are seeing their design as they designed it, or close to it. It is also becoming uneconomical to design navigation using pixel based designs as more and more sites require data driven generation of pages. All major News sites, and any site that produces a large amount of information uses this approach. Designers can still control the fonts, colors, text and hover effects, and, most importantly it scales better. There are so many benefits from at least abandoning graphic labels in navigation. I know designers are reluctant, but it I feel it is more from habit and having a fixed pixel based 800 x 600 mentality, that being restricted by the markup. Also pixel based graphics navigation can look terrible and difficult to read under certain resolutions. Re: Checkpoint 3.1 WCAG1. If you have specific instances, can you please refer to them? My feeling is that at this point, preparing WCAG2, if we DO feel that pixel based graphics navigation is still a legitimate choice, then WCAG2 needs reorientation. There seems to be a great change from WCAG1 to WCAG2. WCAG1 set out the 3 levels of Priority, and if you have a site designed according to any flavour, you can still go over it and adopt all the Priority 1 recommendations to repair it to make it more accessible without fundamentally causing a redesign. Unfortunately a lot of companies (like my last place of work) just use Bobby to get a Priority 1 error free report. It does not matter that Bobby did not pick up that there were no <NOSCRIPT> tags for each <SCRIPT> tag (6.3). WCAG2 seems to have moved beyond that approach. It seems to be saying, in this place and time: this is the way to address markup in order to address accessibility (I am making my own assumption here, please correct me). If a designer really looks at this thoroughly, they should not feel that their freedom and creativity are being taken away, instead, it is our job to show, teach and communicate how they can be just as creative, and more so, while also making their design more accessible and usable. I do feel that the delivery technology is up to this, but the basic design tools definitely are not. In good web teams, it is often best for the designer to produce the design in their pixel based tools, then a HTML/CSS/WAI specialist take that design and render it in markup. 1) Because the tools just aren't good enough, and may not be for a long time, and 2) Most designers cannot come to terms with a liquid design approach. Geoff Deering http://www.acslink.aone.net.au/gdeering/ My two cents on this issue is that appropriate markup for navigation (HTML/XML/CSS/XSL) has not progressed to the point of being able to replace graphical navigation. Until that is the case designers will want to use graphical navigation ahead of any markup. Gian -----Original Message----- From: gdeering [mailto:gdeering@acslink.net.au] Sent: Tuesday, 8 January 2002 5:53 PM To: asgilman; w3c-wai-gl Subject: RE: rationalize presentation [was: Use consistent presentation] I feel this is an important distinction. WCAG2 seems to have advanced quite a way from WCAG1 in the way it now focuses accessibility issues for online producers. To me, WCAG2 does not seem like a clarification of WCAG1, which is what was originally intended, but a redefining and refinement of core issues of Web Content Accessibility. It seems a powerful statement that WCAG2 starts with Guideline 1; putting the focus back on the users needs and preferences. This was one of the main objectives of CSS; the power of design, so that the author based design could easily be overridden or substituted by the users own CSS. This seems to be lost on most of the web designers. If this is lost on most web designers, it is difficult enough for them to come to terms with a model where the user is actually in control of the form and how they assimilate the content. It is very hard as a designer to feel that your site could or should be "skinned" (have another CSS wrapper put around it, other than your own). This is an ideal, but very hard to achieve or deliver for the simple reason of using abstract class definitions that a base User CSS will not implement. Still basic declarations like font properties, etc, should be able to be skinned. What strikes me most about WCAG2 as compared with WCAG1 is the refocusing back on marking up content to facilitate full accessibility to all users. With such focus in WCAG2 on user control, there seems to be an implicit statement that presentation markup follows strict guidelines and syntax (correct use of CSS / XSL), and these are the type of guidelines that say; "Markup your document's presentation style in such a way that users can enforce their own style and rules on your documents and sites". If this is the intention, what are the cases for using navigation bars comprised of graphic images? It seems in WCAG2 we have gone beyond that, saying now that there is an appropriate markup for navigation (HTML/XML/CSS/XSL), graphic text images are obsolete. Is this the implication? Or am I missing something? Geoff Deering -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Al Gilman Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2002 3:15 AM To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org Subject: rationalize presentation [was: Use consistent presentation] Well, we are building a problem for ourselves as soon as we use 'consistent' as the headline. This sends too superficial a message. It creates an appearance that consistency of appearance is the success criterion, whereas this is not the point. What we are after is a consistent relationship between variations in appearance and distinctions in the rhetoric of the site content. The success criterion here is that most presentation differences within the site can be explained by a systematic binding [pattern of relationship] of presentation effects to one consistent set of organizing principles across the whole site. The organizing principles cover concepts not only of parts of the whole but also kinds of stuff found here. This includes both similarities and differences. It is possible to quantify this criterion with entropy measures. What the content provider should accomplish is a balance of a dominant core rationality - functional application of effects - and a light ripple of dither - un-rationalized variation - to combat highway hypnosis. If we just say "rationalize your presentation" and people do this to the max, the result _will_ be boring. A modicum of reasonableness is required in how we try to get people to curb their wildest flights of fancy and employ discipline in presentation. The rational core (of presentation decisions) follows the XAG injunctions: - have a model - bind the model to interface specifics - stick to this plan - share the reasoning for those who have to re-bind Changes in presentation are rocks that turn over. People expect to find information under those rocks. When there is no sense to the change, then all distinctions are treated as senseless. The consistent styling of navbars etc. to indicate the consistent functional role that they play across different pages will be defeated if one does not at the same time hold to a dull roar changes in presentation that are _not_ explainable by site-organizing principles. What Gian has had trouble selling to his customers is good design. Exceptional presentation for exceptional circumstances. It is all backed up by a well-developed design concept or model. But the neanderthals with the money don't have a basis for judging what is a bona-fide exceptional circumstance, unfortunately. So they cling to shallow rules that actually work against the application of the better, deeper, rule. Not a problem with a simple answer, because in many situations we need to rely on the funding authorities to sit on the heads of the designers and make them exercise some discipline in addressing access issues. Al At 07:07 PM 2002-01-03 , gian@stanleymilford.com.au wrote: >Hi, > >I think we had a very productive meeting this morning. > >On the subject of consistency of presentation, I think what we are >trying to say (while still following our own guideline 14.1!) is that >the presentation is similar in design throughout the entire site, and >over a finite period of time (as in, one does not expect the >presentation to continually change on a week-to-week basis). I did go >talk to one of our graphics designers and he did not like the word >'predictable'! So perhaps we can consider other words. A search in the >thesaurus for predictable found: >- obvious >- unsuprising >- expected >- anticipated >- evident >- observable >A search in the thesaurus for consistent found: >- reliable >- constant >- uniform > >And secondly, on the actual amount of consistency, I have found myself >arguing against the guidelines when discussing this checkpoint with >project managers. For a large site I usually advocate the use of >secondary navigation appearing when on a particular page (for an example >see <http://hnb.dhs.vic.gov.au/ds/disabilitysite.nsf/pages/prov%A0vs>http:// hnb. dhs.vic.gov.au/ds/disabilitysite.nsf/pages/prov vs ><http://hnb.dhs.vic.gov.au/ds/disabilitysite.nsf/pages/prog%A0or>http:/ /hn b.dhs.vic.gov.au/ds/disabilitysite.nsf/pages/prog or ><http://www.womensultrasound.com.au/dev/ultra.html>http://www.womensult ras ound.com.au/dev/ultra.html). However when I >suggest this I get checkpoint 13.4 thrown at me and told that it can't >be done (usually I then ask why they have employed me if they aren't >going to listen to me- as you can tell this is a sore point!). So I >believe we should somehow incorporate these navigational mechanisms into >the guidelines, or at the very least, ensure that they aren't outlawed >by the guidelines. The other thing to consider is the use of breadcrumb >trails (see: ><http://www.legalonline.vic.gov.au/CA2569020010C266/All/7002B178A09E591 EC> http://www.legalonline.vic.gov.au/CA2569020010C266/All/7002B178A09E591EC >A256958002682E1?OpenDocument&1=Lifestyle~&2=Drugs~&3=Drug+use+and+the+l a >w~ or ><http://www.doi.vic.gov.au/doi/internet/transport.nsf/headingpagesdispl ay> http://www.doi.vic.gov.au/doi/internet/transport.nsf/headingpagesdisplay >/transport+projectsgreat+ocean+roadstrategy+process+and+timing). >Breadcrumb trails are a very good way of indicating where in the site >you are, especially for those sites that are very large. > >Happy New Year to everyone! > >Cheers, >Gian > >Gian Sampson-Wild >Consultant > >Member: Web Content Accessibility Group Working Group >W3C Web Accessibility Initiative > >Stanley & Milford >A Software Communication Group Company >Level 16 >644 Chapel Street >South Yarra VIC 3141 >Australia >Tel. 613 9826 5829 >Fax. 613 9826 8336 >Mob. 0404 498 030 >Email gian@stanleymilford.com.au > >******************************************** >This message contains privileged and confidential information intended >only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the >intended recipient of this message you must not disseminate, copy or >take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in >error, please notify Software Communication Group immediately. Any views >expressed in this message are those of the individual sender except >where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Software >Communication Group. >******************************************** > > > > >
Received on Wednesday, 9 January 2002 21:21:45 UTC