Re: Rewording of Guideline 2

Responses in JRG:
At 08:01 PM 12/1/2000 -0800, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>Jon,
>
>         If the audience is "web designers", is the phrase "styling 
> information
>used for rendering" meaningful? The term "styling" instead of "presentation
>is going to cause confusion because "styling" has a different meaning to
>visual/artistic folks. Styling is part of presentation.

JRG: I think the term style is more of a W3C term coming from CSS and more 
directly relates to the use of CSS for styling which is what WAI 
promotes.  One thing that has been a big issue with other working groups in 
WAI is the use of terminology, the more different terminology the more 
difficult the guidelines will be to read.  At least that has been my 
experience working on UAAG.

>         To obfuscate further there is "style" inherent in content which 
> could be
>quite difficult to separate out.

JRG: Could you give an example of content or structure markup that implies 
an inherit styling for a particular type of rendering?  Is this images?

>         Presentation, on the other hand is specific to output. Visual/graphic
>presentation may differ from visual/textual presentation may differ from
>auditory presentation may differ from tactile presentation ... We want to
>make presentations equivalent for accessibility

JRG: I think styling can refer to any rendering medium, visual as well as 
audio renderings can be styled using CSS.  Braille I do not believe has an 
special styling markup at this point in CSS.  But there are translators 
that will take MathML and create Nemeth Braille codes.  This is probably 
considered more a translation than a styling issue though.

>                                 Anne
>
>
>At 05:22 PM 12/1/00 -0600, Jon Gunderson wrote:
> >How about:
> >
> >"Separate content and structure information from styling information used
> >for rendering"
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >
> >At 06:12 PM 12/1/2000 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
> >>I was trying to include two ideas. One is that the "data model" needs to be
> >>seperable from teh "presentation model" in order to provide a diffferent
> >>presentation model, for example to convert to a different medium. The 
> other,
> >>important idea, is that there should be presentation models provided. In
> >>practice, HTML includes a default presentation model that is fine for 
> common
> >>types of HTML document, but many languages (for example SVG) do not have a
> >>very helpful default presentation model.
> >>
> >>cheers
> >>
> >>Charles
> >>
> >>On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Jon Gunderson wrote:
> >>
> >>   How about:
> >>
> >>   Create content and structure that is independent of styles used for
> >>   presentation
> >>
> >>   Jon
> >>
> >>
> >>   At 05:34 PM 11/30/2000 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
> >>   >I propose a slight modification:
> >>   >
> >>   >Define the structure of content, and the presentations of it, so they
> >> can be
> >>   >independent of each other.
> >>   >
> >>   >I think Gregg's wording is definitely a move in the right direction.
> >>   >
> >>   >Charles
> >>   >
> >>   >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> >>   >
> >>   >   The following text is a proposed rewriting of guideline 2 to make
> >> it easier
> >>   >   to understand when read in isolation.
> >>   >
> >>   >   "Guideline 2:  Define and expose content and structure so that
>they are
> >>   >   discernable independently from presentation."
> >>   >
> >>   >   Gregg
> >>   >
> >>   >   -- ------------------------------
> >>   >   Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>   >   Professor - Human Factors
> >>   >   Depts of Ind. and Biomed. Engr. - U of Wis.
> >>   >   Director - Trace R & D Center
> >>   >   Gv@trace.wisc.edu, http://trace.wisc.edu/
> >>   >   FAX 608/262-8848
> >>   >   For a list of our listserves send "lists" to listproc@trace.wisc.edu
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>   >--
> >>   >Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409
> >> 134 136
> >>   >W3C Web Accessibility
> >> Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
> >>   >Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053, Australia
> >>   >September - November 2000:
> >>   >W3C INRIA, 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis 
> Cedex,
> >>   >France
> >>
> >>   Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
> >>   Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
> >>   Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
> >>   MC-574
> >>   College of Applied Life Studies
> >>   University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
> >>   1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
> >>
> >>   Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >>   Fax: (217) 333-0248
> >>
> >>   E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
> >>
> >>   WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
> >>   WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134
>136
> >>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
> >>Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053, Australia
> >>September - November 2000:
> >>W3C INRIA, 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
> >>France
> >
> >Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
> >Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
> >Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
> >MC-574
> >College of Applied Life Studies
> >University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
> >1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
> >
> >Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >Fax: (217) 333-0248
> >
> >E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
> >
> >WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
> >WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
> >
> >
> >
>Anne L. Pemberton
>http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1
>http://www.erols.com/stevepem/Homeschooling
>apembert@crosslink.net
>Enabling Support Foundation
>http://www.enabling.org

Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua

Received on Wednesday, 6 December 2000 11:24:21 UTC