Re: consensus?? RE: Textual Images vs. Styled Text, Round Three *ding*

Geoff,

The original checkpoint used MathML as an example so I merely inherited 
that.  The reason it did so, is that if you use an image to represent a 
mathematical equation, the alt-text will most likely not be read by a 
screen reader appropriately.  Therefore, there is a need to provide the 
structure of the equation in markup.

Neither Netscape Communicator nor MS Internet Explorer support MathML (that 
I'm aware of) but there are a whole bunch of other browsers that 
do.  Please refer to: http://www.w3.org/Math/#Software

In developing the guidelines, there was a strong voice from educators on 
this topic.
--wendy

At 04:22 PM 10/16/00 , geoff freed wrote:

> >I propose we add the following to the errata:
> >3.1 When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than
> >images to convey information. [Priority 2] For example, use MathML to mark
> >up mathematical equations, and style sheets to format text and control
> >layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style
> >sheets instead -- except for logos and stylized navigation buttons used to
> >create a distinctive look to a site.
>
>Is it wise to use MathML as an example here?  Unless I'm missing out on 
>something,
>  there's no browser available to even display it.
>
>Geoff Freed
>WGBH/NCAM
>
>
>
>
>
>On Monday, October 16, 2000, Wendy A Chisholm <wendy@w3.org> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >I have reread this entire thread both on IG and GL.  I have given this a
> >lot of thought.  I expect disagreement with my conclusions.
> >
> >The question is:  Does checkpoint 3.1completely outlaw the use of text in
> >images.
> ><blockquote>
> >3.1 When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than
> >images to convey information. [Priority 2] For example, use MathML to mark
> >up mathematical equations, and style sheets to format text and control
> >layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style
> >sheets instead.
> ></blockquote>
> >
> >I have boiled the arguments into the following two positions:
> >
> >1. Checkpoint 3.1 of WCAG 1.0 is open to interpretation because people
> >believe that adequate support for "an appropriate markup language" does not
> >exist.  CSS and SVG as languages exist, but the support for them does
> >not.  Therefore, it <em>should be</em> possible to use images to create
> >text effects and as long as those images have alt-text a site can claim
> >WCAG 1.0 AA Conformance.
> >
> >2. Checkpoint 3.1 of WCAG 1.0 is <em>not</em> open to interpretation
> >because CSS and SVG exist and it is possible to create text effects in
> >markup language.  Therefore, it <em>should not be</em> possible to use
> >images to create text effects and claim WCAG 1.0 AA Conformance.  The
> >primary reason for using markup is for the user to control the
> >presentation, particularly to increase the font size.
> >
> >This is a priority 2 checkpoint.  People can clearly claim WCAG 1.0 single
> >A conformance and use text in images.
> >
> >Conformance to Double A becomes cloudy when we discuss logos or proprietary
> >(or rare) fonts.   It is possible to create logos in SVG, however SVG is
> >not widely supported. As 3.1 is worded, "an appropriate markup language"
> >exists, but the support does not.  Therefore, as it is worded non of the
> >W3C sites can claim higher than single A conformance because we include
> >logos on the majority of our site.  Note that many of those pages currently
> >claim AAA conformance.  Therefore, we can infer that we have been
> >interpreting this checkpoint to mean that an appropriate markup language
> >does not exist.
> >
> >In Opera it is possible to increase the font size of all text, including
> >alt-text for images, up to 1000%.  It is very easy to turn images on and
> >off in Opera.  One only need press "g" or click on a button on the menu
> >bar.  Therefore, if someone with low vision were using the page with opera
> >and had difficulty reading the text in an image, they could easily toggle
> >between seeing the image and reading the "magnified" alt-text.
> >
> >With the current state of browsers, I do not believe it is possible to
> >avoid using text in images. Tools exist that will allow users to magnify
> >the alt-text of those images.  There are also tools that will read text out
> >loud.
> >
> >I believe that many of the pages in the W3C site can continue to claim
> >Triple A conformance to WCAG 1.0 because the appropriate markup language is
> >not supported.  As Lisa pointed out, our own WCAG conformance logo does not
> >conform to checkpoint 3.1.  Why?  Because it is very important to establish
> >the "brand" of both the W3C and WCAG, same with Bobby, and all
> >other logos.
> >
> >By saying that people can not use logos and claim anything higher than a
> >single A would make the other levels of conformance pointless.
> >
> >Therefore, I have to agree that sites may use text in images and claim
> >Double A conformance. However, we should limit the use of text in images to
> >only what is necessary for branding.  I propose limiting text in images to
> >logos and navigation buttons.  It should not be possible to put an entire
> >paragraph of text in an image and claim Double A conformance because you
> >lose the structure of the document.
> >
> >The only case that remains that I find difficult to satisfy is the case
> >that Cynthia pointed out where a company is using images in headings as
> >part of branding.  My concern is that people could claim "branding" for so
> >many things to avoid converting something to markup.  I believe this
> >example violates another checkpoint, 3.5 Use header elements to convey
> >document structure and use them according to specification. [Priority 2]
> >Therefore, someone that wedded to appearance is probably only going to
> >claim Single A and we should all be satisfied with that.
> >
> >I propose we add the following to the errata:
> >3.1 When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than
> >images to convey information. [Priority 2] For example, use MathML to mark
> >up mathematical equations, and style sheets to format text and control
> >layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style
> >sheets instead -- except for logos and stylized navigation buttons used to
> >create a distinctive look to a site.
> >
> >Thoughts?
> >--wendy
> >--
> >wendy a chisholm
> >world wide web consortium
> >web accessibility initiative
> >madison, wi usa
> >tel: +1 608 663 6346
> >/--
> >

--
wendy a chisholm
world wide web consortium
web accessibility initiative
madison, wi usa
tel: +1 608 663 6346
/--

Received on Monday, 16 October 2000 17:07:42 UTC