- From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:12:28 -0400 (EDT)
- To: WAI AU Guidelines <w3c-wai-au@w3.org>
For the Word Demo (first item) JR == Jeff Rayner For the Front Page demo JR == (our own beloved and indispensable) Jan Richards LN == Liddy Nevile JT == Jutta Treviranus WL == William Loughborough == <Geeze> Phill Jenkins ==<Phill> LNG == Lou Nell Gerard HS == heather Swayne GB == Giorgio Brajnik CMN == Charles McCathieNevile == <chaals> KHS == Katie Haritos-Shea WC == Wendy Chisholm Note that there were powerpoint slides with each presentation. These are going to be provided to us - thanks to the presenters. And again, thank you very much to Heather and Microsoft for reorganisation and hospitality above and beyond the call of duty. ==== #wai :chaals @jt <chaals> Jeff Rayner, product manager. <chaals> talk about Word 2002, access, HTML <chaals> on phone LN, JT <chaals> here HS GB WC KHS CMN <chaals> JR Word 2002 is in officeXP <chaals> We are trying to make things go better - give people more control over how features wrk. <chaals> e.g. spellcheck started out as a process you went through at a particular time, then wee went to background indicatin, and then we went to auto-correction, which can have problems if it gets then word wrong. <chaals> So we are trying to make it stop being to aggressive for ordinary users. *** wendy (~wendy@tux.w3.org) joined #wai <chaals> focus areas: collaboration (asynchronous co-editing) <chaals> KHS panels are not dialogs? <chaals> JR No - it can sit there, can be closed, but doesn't need to be worked on. <chaals> smart tags - e.g. enable people when pasting something to work out in what form to paste it <chaals> (e.g. as table, as the text content of the table, etc) <chaals> so you can change what has happeneed from a default to some other option <chaals> compare and merge - like CVS for word documents, with user interface for email etc.. <chaals> also helps that tehre is improved change tracking. chaals wonders how people are going on the phone. <chaals> looked at section 508 compliance, improved accessibility, using ItextStore (new MSAA API) <chaals> KHS can you get heading levels out of iTextStore? <chaals> JR That assumes that documents use styles. <chaals> ..which isn't often the case <chaals> HS doc mapping has been there a long time <chaals> JR and outline. these are used by people, but not consistently in the majority of cases <chaals> CMN Usage patterns: International, or US based? <chaals> JR not uniformaly tested internationally.... <chaals> CMN does it dump out the alt text into a plain text version <chaals> JR I don't think so. <chaals> .. it does it in word formats (doc, RTF) and HTML <wendy> CMN Having the option to do roundtrippable is good. <wendy> ..sometimes stripping out isn't a good thing. <wendy> (this in response to seeing the HTML that was produced. It contains a lot of info. ) <wendy> JR You can save it as reduced w/out the info. <wendy> .. makes smaller. <wendy> .. html is just a file format in word. <wendy> .. it is not an HTML editor, it is a word processor. <wendy> .. whether come in in html, or rtf, or xyz, once in word, word's data structs will be populated. <wendy> .. e.g. spell-checking will kick in. <wendy> .. when save it as html, you'll have spelling states saved (when save as full). <wendy> LN When you filter it would that be a good time to say "make formatting into styles?" <chaals> LN when it produces filtered info isn't that a good time to convert formatting to style? <wendy> JR Interesting idea, but dangers of converting direct formatting into styles. <wendy> .. things may coincidentally look the same, what if need to change style. <wendy> LN Right, that's why do it as an option. <wendy> JR In latest version, have a task pane, you can easily do things like this yourself. <wendy> .. if the goal is to uniformly use styles, rather than direct formatting, <wendy> .. there are many ways to do it w/out walking through the doc repeatedly. <wendy> JT Don't you do that type of extrapolation when converting struct to markup? <wendy> JR Not really. It's looking at what styles are applied or direct formatting and converting it <wendy> ..into HTML representation of it. <wendy> .. e.g., if bold something, we use the "b" element. <wendy> .. if there is something we can't directly translate, e.g. there are things we might not be able <wendy> .. to translate to HTML. We'll warn the user, let them know it might be lost. <chaals> JT so word styles are not converted to equivalent CSS? <wendy> JR We use HTML constructs. <wendy> CMN If I write a new style in word, do I convert that to a css style in the doc? <wendy> JR Type text, select, pick Heading 1. Then view as web page, view source. you'll see we have an H1 <wendy> .. with an h1 style definition in the style element of the header. <wendy> .. therefore, if i define my own h1 style, it will put my preferences here in the style definitions. <wendy> JT What if you start out in word and start a word style. <wendy> JR Yes, that's exactly what's happened. <wendy> .. we've created a defn of that. <wendy> JT I can then edit the styles w/in HTML? <wendy> JR Yes. <wendy> .. if you open the doc in notepad or something, then say where we define style foo as font: helvetica, <wendy> .. you change to courier. will be picked up by word. <wendy> CMN If you create a style, is it a subclass h1 or paragraph w/style attached? <wendy> HS I think it redefines h1. <wendy> JR Muliple cases. If you redefine the style so that it is consistently applied, but if you <wendy> .. make a heading 1, but want this to be green, we'll likely apply h1 but.. <wendy> .. if normal and you a pply bold, the style associated w/it would be normal, but have b elemnt. <wendy> CMN when i use styles i say, "i want htis to be h1, but then i have special h1's." e.g. h1+marching ants. <wendy> JR Are you asking, do we have one style based on the other or create new style? <wendy> CMN Right. <wendy> JR make heading 1+underline. *** Geeze (~love26@209.216.168.212) joined #wai <Geeze> anybody home? <jt> We have IIRC for the meeting <wendy> hi geeze. <wendy> we're on the bridge as well. <Geeze> me too <wendy> oh. welcome. i kind of sounded like someone joined. chaals takes an action item to put these online <wendy> JR The inheritence is handled inherently in word, but not html. <wendy> .. back to the presentation... <wendy> CMN w/in word, the standard source for images is the clip art library. <wendy> JR The library lets you manage images of diff types. <wendy> .. depending on the type they may or may not...in tiff you could stuff text. <wendy> CMN Most image formats have a place to put text. We have a tool for jpegs. <wendy> .. let's you put in all kinds of data in the tool. desc, author, etc. <wendy> .. using rdf to put it in. can use any form you like. <wendy> CMN The min. conformance to the checkpoint is, I'll have to trash the doc since I can't handle it. some info will be lost. <wendy> .. word does on save out. <wendy> JR Don't do here, could consider for future versions. <wendy> .. it's rare. would need a sophisticated html doc for this to kick in. <chaals> Wombat 1.5 - missed that it is possible to do this by warning the user. <wendy> WL Is it tidy friendly? <wendy> JR It is valid HTML. <wendy> WL Tidy will make it XHTML. <wendy> JR Prompting: (3.1) difficult. could build a check, but there is lots of tricky design issues. <wendy> .. exactly when do you prompt? only when saving to html? <wendy> .. do you want to force the user when saving to backup (in case of crash) to prompt? <wendy> CMN Same type of challenge as spellchecking. <wendy> .. depends on workflow pattern. <wendy> JR And user settings. <wendy> .. we never really force you to change them. <wendy> .. could be a setting, just like for mail, where the spell checker gets fired up when you hit send. <wendy> .. save versus send. send - i'm done. <wendy> .. save, i don't want ot lose it. <wendy> CMN To take up, "this is only useful in HTML" what about if you are blind and use word? <wendy> .. if get a doc w/an image in it, what happens? <wendy> HS The info is there, some screen readers get the info some don't. It depends on how the <wendy> .. SR is accessing the document. <wendy> .. our accessibility relies on the accessibility aids. <wendy> CMN Many of these things, could be done as macros. <wendy> JR Yes, save as event, checks alt-text. <wendy> (4.1) <wendy> CMN It's just the collection. <wendy> HS And timing. <wendy> JR That's the hardest part. <wendy> HS Could we show how to edit HTML directly? <wendy> .. the vb environment. <chaals> demo of being able to roundtrip and edit at each end in a word HTML source editor <wendy> CMN Put longdesc="foo", will it roundtrip? <wendy> JR tries it. <wendy> .. it's still there. <wendy> .. but the quotes disappear. seems to be a bug. <wendy> LN May I try a roundtrip? <wendy> .. if you made a word doc. spit out small version. run it through html tidy. make it xhtml. <wendy> .. what would it do? <wendy> Action KHS: run a test. <wendy> cmn sends JR an xhtml file. <wendy> opens it as plain text, since doesn't recognize the namespace. <wendy> .. probably suggests that if save as xhtml and open in word, can save it out again, but only plain text. <wendy> ** front page folks arrive. <wendy> ** 15 minutes break *** wendy has signed off (EOF From client) <chaals> JR leaves <chaals> LNG - Lou Nell Gerard, Program manager <chaals> NJR - normal Jan Richards - joins <chaals> FP targets - hobbyist, small business, large orgs and we bdeveloper. *** KatieHS (~kshea@dialup-63.214.8.221.Dial1.Seattle1.Level3.net) joined #wai chaals waves to katie *** wendy (~wendy@tux.w3.org) joined #wai <chaals> site management tools done by a group. <wendy> CMN what is lead time? <wendy> HS depends on spec. <wendy> .. product, etc. <wendy> CMN Likely be 2 years? How find a place in the product cycle? <wendy> xx e.g. by the time wcag completed, we were frozen on this release. roughly 2 years. <wendy> HS Under best of conditions. If hit at right time, you have about 18 months (that's short). <wendy> .. if hit inappropriate, e.g. just after planning, then they have a year of following the plan, then it could be much longer. <wendy> CMN Some stuff easier to get into the plan than other things. <chaals> so generally 2 to three years is "normal" <chaals> LNG testing on accessibility of UI <wendy> s/xx/LNG <chaals> HS different testing strategies used. <wendy> LNG working with developer, creating a site for brain injury organization. <wendy> .. he said not enough support for cognitive issues. people need images. too much emphasis on text in the guidelines. <wendy> KHS diff between 2000 and 2002. <wendy> LNG New usage and reporting tools. Content management. <wendy> HS Share features w/word and rest office suite. <wendy> xx HTML preservation improved. <wendy> LNG Editing features - find & replace improvements. <wendy> .. work w/sharepoint. server extensions groups, team collaboration. <wendy> CMN Looked at CMN against authoring tool guidelines. <wendy> HS I've made it clear that we don't do public conformance statements about our products. <wendy> .. we can talk about what we believe the opportunities for the product are. <wendy> .. moving in structure. accessibility checker. we can discuss generally, or go through specific checkpoints. <wendy> CMN list of things that spring to mind as opportunities. <wendy> HS Those two. <wendy> CMN list of successes? e.g. clean roundtripping, .. <wendy> HS Help system. keyboard shortcut documentation, doc in general. <wendy> .. helping users understand that accessibility is a concern. <wendy> CMN managing libraries of object, having descriptions not so much functional alternatives. <wendy> LNG Talking about using the same image throughout site? <wendy> CMN CLip art libraries. <wendy> LNG We don't own clip art. <wendy> JR Do the clip art people also own video and such? <wendy> HS Yes. <wendy> CMN If you have a photo library, collect descriptions of phtos. Much harder to collect alt-text given <wendy> .. function of photo will change. <wendy> JR Also talking about captions, and such. <wendy> .. heard a bit about checking and correcting. can you give more details? <wendy> LNG Hiawatha is a 3rd party vendor that uses our object model. they use a tool that <wendy> .. checks and repairs. <wendy> .. we were involved to some extent, where they ran into problems. <wendy> JR How well is that integrated? <wendy> LNG I hear good feedback. <wendy> HS It's an add-in. <wendy> .. added to toolbar. <wendy> JR It's a check accessibility menu. <wendy> xx Have you used a lot of the tools? <wendy> CMN Yes. (lists...) <wendy> xx how do you feel about their coverage? how well do they enforce WCAG? <wendy> CMN The best are helpful. YOu still ahve to use your brain. <wendy> .. it's an interactive model. <wendy> xx question about wombat. <wendy> .. ensure that preauthored content conforms to WCAG. <wendy> .. WCAG contains many non-machine checkable info. <wendy> .. e.g. color info. <wendy> .. there are a lot of p1 that are not machine-checkable. <wendy> .. how could you conformant w/this. how can we ensure that all content that we generate <wendy> is wcag. <wendy> CMN preauthored, just check it before you put it in. <wendy> xx these things that are not machine checkable... <wendy> CMN clear and simple language s the classic "not checkable." <wendy> .. as a technique, you can do grammar checking. <wendy> .. known complex things that can be translate.d <wendy> .. words not in primary school dictionary. thesaurus. <wendy> JR Issue of whether that is appropriate to the audience. <wendy> CMN machine support techniques. <wendy> LNG question about grammar checking tool, current word checker help? <wendy> CMN Yes. adequate? stop using it. <wendy> .. australian english grammar and american english grammar are different. <wendy> xx you offer priorities. you try to quantify how accessible something is, when it is grey. <wendy> cmn we are putting markers along a continuum. <wendy> LNG Have you thought about publishing list of links of sites that are good. <wendy> .. these are accessible but not usable. <wendy> WC Yes, supporting documentation in the works. Particularly libary of test files and issues. <wendy> CMN One thing to push is particpants and sponsors of WAI saying "this is a priority." <wendy> .. some work but never enough. <wendy> xx know of authoring tools that have been verified to be A, AA, or AAA? <wendy> CMN no. surprised if one exists w/out single miss. <wendy> .. many are reasonably close to AA <wendy> .. if put together a series of prodcuts, it works. <jt> Charles keeps cutting out can you ask him to get closer the themike <wendy> moving the phone. <wendy> does that help? <jt> yes tYes thats mcuh better <wendy> xx ensure foreground/background colors contrast. <wendy> .. if i want to enforce (checkpoint 2.2) <wendy> s/xx/ds <wendy> ds i am a dev in frontpage team. <wendy> .. i see 2 ways to do it, hard way: do image analysis. <wendy> .. use ocr, etc. or i could just prompt the user. <wendy> .. would the latter be adequate? <wendy> cmn yes. meets the min requirement. ask user is min. <wendy> JR in fact, don't even need to say it for each image. <wendy> .. in general, ... show colors changed in some way. <wendy> WC Can show user what it looks like - tool like that. <wendy> DS user still have to go through, would that be AA? <wendy> JR Prompting is A for asking, AA for showing, AAA for completely automatic. <wendy> CMN Gets into integration. <wendy> JR Can have AAA if you ask the question in a way that seems that integrates w/the rest of the way the tools works. <wendy> .. don't worry about sper complicated to get higher rating. *** Phill (~pjenkins@pixpat.austin.ibm.com) joined #wai <wendy> CMN what underlies it is an assumption that A, AA, AAA matches good, better, best. <wendy> .. in some way it does. <wendy> .. no requirement to get better. <Phill> Phill joins via chat <Phill> Are you getting ready for lunch (12 noon) ? <wendy> GB 2 goals: 1 is reaching a certain level of compliance. <chaals> Hi Phill. <wendy> .. other is reaching support for the user. <wendy> .. they are not the same. <chaals> Yes, we are. We are talking to the frontpage team <wendy> HS Tradeoff between making the goals. <Phill> I'll connect back at 1pm your time - ok? <chaals> OK. We are on the phone as well. <wendy> JT will the ave use of the tool make accessible content? <wendy> .. that's what we set for p1. <Phill> I will connect on both phone & chat at 1pm-ish <wendy> HS Yesterday we started conversation about EARL and integration. <chaals> EARL == Evaluation and Report Language <chaals> WC we have been working on heuristics for testing things. <chaals> .. how do we know when to prompt the user? When is something a quote? <chaals> .. there is a lot that is checked by humans - how can we keep the results of that? <chaals> .. can we pass information on checks between tools? <chaals> .. EARL keeps track of checks that have been done. <chaals> DS So this is a reporting format. <wendy> CMN talked w/hiawatha about how they track things. <chaals> WC we can use it to do evaluations of tools, so we can record how well tools do on aspects of checking. <wendy> CMN authoring tool evaluations 2 years ago. <wendy> .. simple reporting language. <chaals> http://www.w3.org/2001/03/earl <chaals> HS this is the first explanation that has made sense to me - the bit about not having to ask the same question again and again. <chaals> WC We are trying to make the materials about EARL easier to unsderstand. <wendy> CMN Use cases: passing info between tools, me looking for accessible content, <wendy> .. tools to do partial evaluations, <wendy> **discussion of EARL *** KatieHS has signed off (Ping timeout) -- Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles phone: +61 409 134 136 W3C Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI fax: +1 617 258 5999 Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France)
Received on Thursday, 13 September 2001 15:12:28 UTC