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Re: Last Call AU: presentation order

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:00:46 -0400 (EDT)
To: "Leonard R. Kasday" <kasday@acm.org>
cc: w3c-wai-au@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.9910251855350.30856-100000@tux.w3.org>
There is a specific techniques suggestion in checkpoint 4.1, and the
reference to WCAG in checkpoint 1.3. In addition a technique has been added
to checkpoint 1.2 in the next draft.

Charles McCN

On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:

  Yes, the AU guidelines implicitly refer to the need for the HTML to be in
  proper order.  But I don't see any reference to a feature that's often
  needed to do so, viz
  
       a way for the author to <strong> explicitly </strong> specify the 
       order in which those elements appear in the HTML.  
  
  This is needed if all you have is a wysiwyg view, in which a sighted order
  has slid things around on the screen.  In other words, the x,y coordinates
  have been specified via positioning but no serial is defined.  The program
  can apply heuristics to find the serial order, but they don't always work.
  (That's what they tried to do at Adobe.  I think they put in some hard
  effort with good people but there are still PDF documents where the order
  comes out screwey.)
  
  I feel rather strong about this because the problem comes up with Microsoft
  Publisher.  I need to put up some pages that were created by someone who
  slid text around, and the text order in the HTML is really mixed up.  I
  wrote Microsoft and they weren't able to help.  If they want to keep the
  slide around interface, they need to have explicit positioning.
  
  Word is different than Publisher because you can't just arbitrarily
  position something somewhere: you have to insert it in a flow.
  
  The difference is that in publisher you define an object and then give it's
  x,y position.  In word you define a serial order.
  
  It's true that there are some simple presentations like having just two
  columns where the order stays defined.  But even if a simple heuristic can
  deduce the reading order from the visual presentation, that may not be the
  optimal reading order for someone who is blind.  For example, you may want
  to move a bunch of menu links from the beginning to the end.
  
  
  
  
  At 03:35 PM 10/23/99 -0400, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
  >We address this problem through reference to the Web Content Accessibility
  >Guidelines, most obviously in guideline 1.
  >
  >An example of an authoring tool that handles this in an advanced way is
  >Microsoft Word, which allows the creation of various headers and footers, and
  >columnar text, but can reproduce a linear flow order.
  >
  >Cheers
  >
  >Charles McCathieNevile
  >
  >On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
  >
  >  <fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger>When style sheets are
  >  used, the order in which items appear visually can be different than the
  >  order in which they appear in the HTML source, which is the order in
  >  which a blind person would hear them (at least with current browsers). 
  >  WYSIWYG editors tend to make the orders different whenever the user
  >  starts moving things around,  and  hand-crafted HTML can be just as 
  >  bad.
  >  
  >  
  >  In fact, in a 2-dimensional graphical layout, "the order" is not always
  >  obvious. defined, or best suited to the needs of blind surfers.
  >  
  >  
  >  Therefore, when sections of the page have an order controlled by a style
  >  sheet, the tool needs a way to independently control the order in which
  >  those sections appear in the HTML.  The result would be displayed in a
  >  separate window, with means to showing what corresponds to what, just
  >  like in the email with subject: " Last call AU: simultaneous
  >  presentations" 
  >  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/1999OctDec/0016.html
  >  
  >  
  >  I think this would best fit under guideline 1.  
  >  
  >  
  >  I'd give it a priority 1.  It addresses the biggest hassle I'm currently
  >  facing as I try to transfer newsletters from a major desktop publishing
  >  program  to a web site.
  >  
  >  </bigger></fontfamily>
  >  
  >  Len
  >  
  >  -------
  >  
  >  Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
  >  
  >  Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
  >  
  >  Department of Electrical Engineering
  >  
  >  Temple University
  >  
  >  
  >  Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
  >  
  >  kasday@acm.org        
  >  
  >  (215) 204-2247 (voice)
  >  
  >  (800) 750-7428 (TTY)
  >  
  >
  >--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
  >phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
  >W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
  >MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
  >
  >
  >
  -------
  Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
  Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
  Department of Electrical Engineering
  Temple University
  
  Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
  kasday@acm.org        
  (215) 204-2247 (voice)
  (800) 750-7428 (TTY)
  

--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
Received on Monday, 25 October 1999 19:00:48 UTC

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