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RE: Autmotic Translators Google SysTrans Want to find out more; why both same?

From: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:32:21 -0400
Message-ID: <BAY114-F3720923C0E255CED3EA35CB3250@phx.gbl>
To: ecrire@catherine-roy.net
Cc: w3c-translators@w3.org

Hi, thanks to all French speakers for their corrections!  I've straightened 
out my texts.

Both machine translators still get "n'est pas" wrong; I assume it is because 
there is not enough information in that phrase for the machine.

Also google (and I've got to check the other) translates
* * *
"Est-il possible que personne l'a vue?"
as:
"Is it possible that nobody saw?"

(Is it my French here that makes google leave off the pronoun "her" or 
"it"??)

But what I want to know is why the mistakes all match up???

Are the two methods used by the two translators different???

Thanks.

--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
( It's nice to have these corrections broadcast all over the list--though I 
know Catherine did not send this to the list; I wrote the incorrect a-t-il 
because I am not too used to asking questions in French as I've never taught 
French; I've taken lit courses in French, and yes composition courses; but 
the language I taught was ESL;
I once created some activities do do for the novel "Therese Desqueyroux" for 
my friends who taught French after they helped proctor an examination I had 
to take in French, then put those online; that's as far as I've gotten to 
teaching French; I do not teach now however anything!!!).


>
>
>Example 1
>
>Il va pleuvoir le dimanche, n'est pas?  A-t-il quelque chose que je peux 
>faire?"
>
>Should be:
>
>Il va pleuvoir dimanche, n'est pas ?  Y a-t-il quelque chose que je puisse 
>faire ?

(The translators handled the sentence o.k. with peux;
interestingly they both also handled the erroneous:
S'il est impossible que quelque chose se passe, y a t-il des cas ou il est 
possible qu'il se passe?

fine!!!)

>
>Because a) as far as I can tell in this context, there is no need for the 
>article “le” before the word “dimanche”, b) the second part of the 
>second sentence should be in the subjunctive and c) as Christopher pointed 
>out, you need to have the pronoun “Y” before the verb “avoir” in 
>this context.
>
>Example 2:
>
>S'il est impossible que quelque chose se passe, a-t-il des cas où il est 
>possible qu'elle se passe?
>
>Should be:
>
>S'il est impossible que quelque chose se produise, y a-t-il des cas où ce 
>serait possible ?
>
>Because a) the verb “to occur” should be translated as “se 
>produire” (“avoir lieu” or “arriver” could be ok too), b) again, 
>as Christopher pointed out, you need to have the pronoun “Y” before the 
>verb “avoir” in this context and c) there is no need to repeat the 
>initial premise in the second part of the sentence.
>
>
>
>
>--
>Catherine Roy
>
>www.catherine-roy.net
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-
> > international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of CE
> > Whitehead
> > Sent: June 8, 2007 11:55 AM
> > To: christophe.strobbe@esat.kuleuven.be; w3c-
> > translators@w3.org
> > Cc: www-international@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Autmotic Translators Google SysTrans
> > Want to find out more; why both same?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your info on the French  (I think you are
> > right; I think you have
> > to repeat "quelque chose"--"des cas où il est
> > possible que
> > >se passe quelque chose"; I'll have to check with a
> > French speaker!)
> > ; but google and systrans are doing personal pronouns
> > improperly in any
> > case, also!
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --C. E. Whitehead
> > cewcathar@hotmail.com
> > >
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >At 16:56 8/06/2007, CE Whitehead wrote:
> > >
> > >>Systrans is getting more like Google neither does
> > impersonal pronouns
> > >>properly!
> > >>
> > >>* * *
> > >>
> > >>Example 1:
> > >>
> > >>Original (French) text:
> > >>
> > >>"Il va pleuvoir le dimanche, n'est pas?  A-t-il
> > quelque chose que je peux
> > >>faire?"
> > >>
> > >>Systrans:
> > >>
> > >>"It will rain Sunday, is not? Does it have
> > something which I can do?"
> > >>
> > >>Google:
> > >>
> > >>"It will rain Sunday, is not? Does it have
> > something which I can do?"
> > >>
> > >>(I would translate the sentence as:
> > >>
> > >>"It's going to rain Sunday, right?  Is there
> > anything I can do?")
> > >
> > >As far as I know, your translation of the second
> > sentence would have been
> > >correct if the French original had been "Y a-t-il
> > ...".
> > >"a-t-il" can mean "does he/it have..."
> > >
> > >
> > >>(...)
> > >>* * *
> > >>Example 2-3
> > >>
> > >>Original Text:
> > >>
> > >>"S'il est impossible que quelque chose se passe, a-
> > t-il des cas où il est
> > >>possible qu'elle se passe?"
> > >>
> > >>(...)
> > >>Translating French > English  (google and Systrans
> > again the same!)
> > >>
> > >>"If it is impossible that something occurs, does it
> > have cases where it is
> > >>possible that it occurs?"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>(I'd translate the above, French > English, as "If
> > it is impossible that
> > >>something will happen, are there cases where it is
> > possible that it will
> > >>happen" but it's my French I'm translating so the
> > original may not sound
> > >>perfectly native but I think it's o.k.)
> > >
> > >Same problem with "a-t-il" as above, AFAIK.
> > >Moreover, I can't make sense of "des cas où il est
> > possible qu'elle se
> > >passe". What is "elle" ("she") supposed to refer to?
> > I doubt that you can
> > >refer back to "quelque chose" by means of "elle" in
> > the second clause, and
> > >that you can use "elle" with "se passer" if that
> > verb is used in the sense
> > >of "to happen".
> >
> > Yes, I agree now it does sound funny; but French is
> > not my first languages
> > >
> > >So who is "doing" pronouns improperly?
> > >
> > >
> > >Best regards,
> > >
> > >Christophe
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Christophe Strobbe
> > >K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
> > >Research Group on Document Architectures
> > >Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
> > >B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
> > >BELGIUM
> > >tel: +32 16 32 85 51
> > >http://www.docarch.be/
> > >
> > >
> > >Disclaimer:
> > http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
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>
>
>

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Received on Friday, 8 June 2007 18:32:38 UTC

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