RDFCore WG minutes for the telecon 2002-08-02 (rdf doc, datatypes)

RDFCore WG minutes for the telecon 2002-08-02 (rdf doc, datatypes)

Time:
10:00:00 Fri Aug 2 2002 in America/New York
which is equivalent to
15:00:00 Fri Aug 2 2002 in Europe/London

Phone: +1-617-761-6200 (Zakim)#7332
irc: irc.w3.org #rdfcore

Transcript:  (file attached)

Summary of new actions:
ACTION 2002-08-02#1, GK:  make agreed changes to new doc and notify EM
ACTION 2002-08-02#2, EM:  get ball rolling for publication of new WD
ACTION 2002-08-02#3, Guha:   lead submission of new datatyping proposal, ASAP
ACTION 2002-08-02#4, Jeremy: prepare test case(s) for new datatyping proposal


Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Aug/0007.html

1: Allocate scribe:  Graham Klyne


2: Roll call

Participants:
    - Eric Miller (chair)
    - Daniel Brickley
    - Dave Beckett
    - Frank Manola
    - Graham Klyne
    - Jeremey Carroll
    - Jos De Roo
    - Ron Daniels
    - Dan Connolly
    - Pat Hayes
    - Mike Dean
    - Guha
    - Sergey Melnik

Regrets/absent:
    - Brian McBride (chair)
    - Patrick Stickler
    - Jan Grant
    - Stephen Petschulat
    - Aaron Swartz
    - Frank Boumphrey
    - KWON Hyung-Jin
    - Michael Kopchenov
    - Ora Lassila
    - Pierre G Richard
    - Rael Dornfest
    - Satoshi Nakamura
    - Yoshiyuki Kitahara


3: Review Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Aug/0007.html

em: requests addition of lBase discussion, if time permits


4: Next telecon Aug 9 2002

(DanC notes regrets for this telecon)


5: Review minutes of 2002-07-26 teleconference

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jul/0162.html

No comments or objections.


6: Status of Action Items

Proposed Closed Items
ACTION: ericm, Chase minutes of last telecon
ACTION: gk, release new doc on Tuesday
ACTION: jjc, to produce test cases to reflect decision re nodeID
ACTION: jjc, update test case in light of rdf:ID decision
ACTION: ericm, Solicit reviews re gk's new document
Agreed all completed.

Open Items:

ACTION: 2002-05-31#4 bwm
add "see also" links between rdfms-containers other approaches and
rdfms-seq-representation in the issues list document
Continues

ACTION: danbri to circulate LBase document before Wednesday
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/26-rdfcore-irc#T14-10-46
Completed

ACTION: jang
update test cases in light of bugs</dd>
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-34-20
Continues

ACTION: eric
Look into why jang gets dropped on rdf-comments list and fix problem
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-35-21
Fixed, completed.

ACTION: bwm
to identify applications needed and get a schedule for them
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-54-10
Continues

ACTION: bwm
have a good holiday
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T15-03-20
Continues

ACTION: daveb
update syntax in light of rdf:ID decision
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-23-41
Continues - new draft next Tuesday

ACTION: daveb
update syntax doc to reflect decision re nodeID
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-51-04
Continues - new draft next Tuesday

ACTION: daveB
to update rdfms-names-use to reflect rdf:nodeID
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-51-52
Continues - new draft next Tuesday

ACTION ericm
Review gk's new document
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T15-00-48
Completed.

ACTION: danbri
Review gk's new document
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T15-01-24
Completed.

ACTION: jos
Partial review of gk's document (emphasis on section 2.3)
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T15-03-02
Completed.

ACTION: danbri
Partial review of gk's document (emphasis on section 2.3)
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T15-03-13
Completed.

ACTION: frank
Partial review of gk's document (emphasis on section 2.3)
context: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T15-04-03
Completed.


7) New Document

Announcement:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jul/0177.html

There has been much discussion in email.  Main outstanding issues are:
- RDF-as-XML, and references to striped syntax
- Assertions - interaction between formal/social meaning - work to make 
meaning clearer
- Assertion and MIME type - may be incorrect as drafted
- General organization of material

Proposed that publication go ahead with all contentious text removed, or 
note added explaining that work is still needed.

Designing XML data to be RDF compatible as an effective way way of getting 
RDF adopted.  Saying something about this may be appropriate, but better in 
the Primer.

Discussion about moving material to other documents -- will this require an 
additional WD before last call?  Differing views.

DECIDED:  to go ahead with WD publication, subject to:
- removal of RDF-as-XML/striped syntax references
- addition of note that some material may move to other documents
- repeat abstract material in introduction
- clarify normative intent
Agree:   danc, jos, pat, frank, daveb, danbri, mike
Abstain: sergey, ron, eric

ACTION 2002-08-02#1, GK:  make agreed changes to new doc and notify EM
ACTION 2002-08-02#2, EM:  get ball rolling for publication of new WD


8) Datatypes

Discussion of Guha's proposal to concentrate on local typing only;  his 
basic position is that we are signally failing to make progress on "global 
idiom", but it would be highly unsatisfactory to publish without a way to 
express (say) that some given literal is a number.

Mike and Frank expressed a desire for the global idiom to be available.
We believe that PatrickS (in absentia) strongly desires global idiom.
DanC asked to explore going to last call without any datatyping.

Guha clarifies:  proposal is to start with local idiom, allow 
application-specific or other layers to add global idiom;  i.e. not to rule 
it out completely.

MikeD raises two objections:  local idiom adds triple-bloat;  local idiom 
privides noi way for schema to say that a particular data type is expected 
for a given property.
Guha clarifies:  "local idiom" means some way of specifying the type of a 
particular literal, not necessarily extra triples.  In particular, allow 
literals to include things other than strings.

Jeremy:  what does graph look like with local typing?

(Jeremy?):  restricting ourselves to local typing is one thing, but there's 
also the issue of tidy vs untidy literals that still needs to be addressed.

... (more discussion of various details.  General tone is supportive, other 
than concerns already mentioned.)

Question:  can use of schema to express expected typing be consistent with 
local typing?  Yes, but the schema-described typing would not be enforced 
by the model theory.

For clarity, the proposal is something like this:  <age 
xsi:type="xsd:integer">10</age>

DECIDED:  Guha, Sergey, PatH, Mike, Jos will work on a new proposal to do 
local typing only;  jjc will do a test case or two.

DaveB notes that if there are syntax changes, the final draft of syntax due 
next week is at risk.

MikeD reasserts that triple bloat would be a real problem (current 
databases c. 0.5million triples).  The new proposal won't introduce new 
triples;  still some concern about need to annotate literals with type.

ACTION 2002-08-02#3, Guha:   lead submission of new datatyping proposal, ASAP
ACTION 2002-08-02#4, Jeremy: prepare test case(s) for new datatyping proposal

--meeting closed--


-------------------
Graham Klyne
<GK@NineByNine.org>