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Re: [ontolog-forum] New Postulate formulation on AI KR

From: joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:29:14 -0700
Message-ID: <CAPnyebxx0PBp10U8G7_Y7ZYDtsKjzodNnjUu=8Dw77NNW-mceA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ontolog Forum @ GG" <ontolog-forum@googlegroups.com>
Cc: W3C AIKR CG <public-aikr@w3.org>, semantic-web at W3C <semantic-web@w3c.org>, "mjs0sbw@gmail.com" <mjs0sbw@gmail.com>
Alex:

My initial response to your question"

"Is there any definition for ontology from your point of view?"

is available in the document titled "Ontology as a System."

The document is available at:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336229633_Ontology_as_a_System

One of the key ideas in the document is the creation of a collection of
simple (minimalist)  individual ontologies
that may be integrated upon demand to create a more robust ontology.

In any case, this is my initial attempt to more clearly connect structural
modeling and ontology creation.

Take care and have fun,

Joe


On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 1:13 AM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe,
>
> I think I was wrong using =, + signs in my reply, as you did not
> understand me. You wrote, "According to your statement, an ontology is a
> finite structure modeling a formal theory."
> No, sir.
> An ontology is a finite structure modeling a formal theory together with
> formal theory itself.
> Structure and theory in one bottle, if I may say this way.
>
> Let's clarify that before move forward.
>
> It seems you do not use "ontology" in your texts, but you have "model" and
> "theory." Is there any definition for ontology from your point of view?
>
> Alex
>
>
> ср, 28 авг. 2019 г. в 17:36, joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>:
>
>> Alex:
>>
>> Interesting approach.
>>
>> Your statement:
>>
>> "Ontology = formal theory + finite structure modeling it:-)"
>>
>> Includes two main parts:
>>
>> 1 - formal theory
>> 2 - finite structure
>>
>> We may be using slightly different definitions of the term theory, but I
>> do not see this as a problem at this level of detail.
>>
>> The finite structure that models the theory is an other area where we may
>> be using slightly different definitions of structure, but again I see no
>> issues at this time.
>>
>> According to your statement, an ontology is a finite structure modeling a
>> formal theory.
>>
>> I have been addressing structures with different levels of abstraction,
>> ranging from general (very abstract) to specific (very concrete.)
>>
>> Please see the document, "Basic System Concepts," for an example of these
>> levels of abstraction.  A general (abstract) concept cube is presented
>> first in the paper which then is transformed into two specific examples,
>> General System Cube and a Logic Cube.  The paper is available at:
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331221935_Basic_System_Concepts
>>
>> I think there is room to discuss the different types of finite
>> structures  that are valuable in the production and utilization of and
>> ontology.
>>
>> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:43 AM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> Let me say this way.
>>> -math structure is a mathematical structure. (Matrix, set of natural
>>> numbers, labeled graph...)
>>> -the theory is a special kind of text with axioms, definitions, theorems,
>>> and proofs.
>>> So they exist separately.
>>> Math structure is a model for theory if we have an interpretation of
>>> theory formulae such that all axioms are true.
>>> So, a model is a role math structure may play or not play for theory.
>>> And we came to the formula:
>>>
>>> Ontology = formal theory + finite structure modeling it:-)
>>>
>>> what do you think?
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> ср, 28 авг. 2019 г. в 01:57, joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Alex:
>>>>
>>>> Great question.
>>>>
>>>> "is it possible to say that formal mathematical models you are talking
>>>> about are finite?"
>>>>
>>>> Some models (Formal Theories)  may be finite others may be infinite.
>>>>
>>>> In this case, I assume you are using the terms "models" and "formal
>>>> theory" interchangeably.
>>>>
>>>> To me the important ideas are associated with the model (theory) level
>>>> of abstraction.
>>>>
>>>> Abstract mathematical theories (models) can address both finite (matrix
>>>> theory) and infinite (number theory) abstract models.
>>>>
>>>> These abstract models (theories) may be formally applied to any
>>>> specific domain of science.
>>>>
>>>> When these abstract models (theories) are applied to a specific domain
>>>> of science, the concrete, substantive data and information that
>>>> populates the models transform the theory from "abstract" to "concrete
>>>> specific."
>>>>
>>>> General Systems Theory is viewed as occupying the space between
>>>> abstract formal mathematical theories (models) and content specific
>>>> theories (models) of specific scientific domains.
>>>>
>>>> I tend to view this area of inquiry along a graded range starting from
>>>> pure abstraction and flowing to specific concrete examples.
>>>>
>>>> As Boulding wrote:
>>>> "General Systems Theory is a name which has come into use to describe
>>>> a level of theoretical model-building which lies somewhere between the
>>>> highly generalized constructions of pure mathematics and the specific
>>>> theories of the specialized disciplines. "
>>>>
>>>> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:49 AM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>
>>>>> is it possible to say that formal mathematical models you are talking
>>>>> about are finite?
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 15:13, joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Figure 1,  Scientific Method and Model Building *is basically a
>>>>>> process flow chart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 1:25 AM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you are happy to work with systems and even in a general way. But
>>>>>>> who will work with not systems? (joke)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a pity Fig.1 in "System Concepts and Theories" does not have
>>>>>>> rectangles for formal mathematical models, as it's better to keep theory
>>>>>>> and models separately.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 03:58, joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The statement:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Interdisciplinarity is fundamental to problem solving in most
>>>>>>>> domains, and applied science and engineering are concerned primarily with
>>>>>>>> problem solving, rather than purely theoretical formulations"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Appears to relate directly to General Systems Theory.  See:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323387658_A_General_Systems_Context_for_Structural_Modeling
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.panarchy.org/boulding/systems.1956.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proper alignment of natural language and formal language may be
>>>>>>>> addressed in a range of view points.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some issues and ideas are outlined at:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324138184_System_Concepts_and_Theories
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:42 AM Paola Di Maio <
>>>>>>>> paola.dimaio@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you Alex
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> variations/elaborations  welcome (Vx)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a problem with math KR tho - which has been discussed
>>>>>>>>> forever
>>>>>>>>> I ll summarise it briefly hoping to put things to rest:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interdisciplinarity is fundamental to problem solving in most
>>>>>>>>> domains, and applied science and engineering are concerned primarily with
>>>>>>>>> problem solving, rather than purely theoretical formulations
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interdisciplinarity means not everyone uses maths (  apparently
>>>>>>>>> even mathematicians sometimes use different types of maths) Most domain
>>>>>>>>> experts are not mathematicians
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Therefore, maths, like ml should also be translatable/mappable to
>>>>>>>>> to plain natural language, even better to some diagrammatic notation  or
>>>>>>>>> logical language that reproduces the logical schema ideally, problems and
>>>>>>>>> solutions should be represented in a multiplicity of ways
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This particular postulate - luckily I dont wake up early morning
>>>>>>>>> to postulate very often - has been prompted but the need to fill a gap
>>>>>>>>> between symbolic an subsymbolic KR as per the posts, and having a citable
>>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>> I am sure it can be refined further
>>>>>>>>> PDM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:29 PM Alex Shkotin <
>>>>>>>>> alex.shkotin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Paola,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I keep in mind a variation of your postulate:
>>>>>>>>>> Any algorithm (including MLA) has math representation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is all that we have been talking about since Leibniz: math
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge representation:-)
>>>>>>>>>> The problem is that computer programs and DBs are not
>>>>>>>>>> mathematical structures but they work:-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> пн, 26 авг. 2019 г. в 05:27, Paola Di Maio <
>>>>>>>>>> paola.dimaio@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since posting  discussions about bridging the gap between
>>>>>>>>>>> symbolic and subsymbolic, (see related posts) I have formulated a simple
>>>>>>>>>>> postulate, and assigned a DOI so that anone following up on these
>>>>>>>>>>> discussions can cite the contribution accordingly. I ll be happy to review
>>>>>>>>>>> the postulate with comments and suggestions if any
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To support AI explainability, learnability,verifiability and
>>>>>>>>>>> reproducibility, it is postulated that
>>>>>>>>>>> for each MLA *machine learning algorithm,
>>>>>>>>>>> there should correspond a natural language expression or other
>>>>>>>>>>> type of symbolic knowledge representation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.9730268.v2
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://figshare.com/articles/A_New_Postulate_for_Knowledge_Representation_in_AI/9730268
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source
>>>>>>>>>>> license.
>>>>>>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribe or
>>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
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>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSrRtE0_8O3jtKKA%3D%2BOR%2BWUbFjCQi4Fxy_EzenO1CiYNjA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source
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>>>>>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
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>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROSc2ks%2BMsg-52eHktHVkQVRrKZCc8sXBSExXq5kv62ocQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source
>>>>>>>>> license.
>>>>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
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>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSovddhOskeG-uOWNYuLapDQ%3DcNM7u%3DDDNq6k3va3i5zjQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Joe Simpson
>>>>>>>> “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable
>>>>>>>> people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress,
>>>>>>>> therefore, depends on unreasonable people.”
>>>>>>>> George Bernard Shaw
>>>>>>>> Git Hub link:
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/jjs0sbw
>>>>>>>> Research Gate link:
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3
>>>>>>>> YouTube Channel
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw
>>>>>>>> Web Site:
>>>>>>>> https://systemsconcept.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source
>>>>>>>> license.
>>>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>>>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
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>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebyaNH-GhM6aQuP%3DB8TSkBaXhL-pREscgK2iiXp6HTTnWw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source
>>>>>>> license.
>>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or
>>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROR2uo4F7CEGT0GN8Pj-GN4PBk2yZZAUUrOrYJA_zLkTBw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joe Simpson
>>>>>> “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable
>>>>>> people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress,
>>>>>> therefore, depends on unreasonable people.”
>>>>>> George Bernard Shaw
>>>>>> Git Hub link:
>>>>>> https://github.com/jjs0sbw
>>>>>> Research Gate link:
>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3
>>>>>> YouTube Channel
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw
>>>>>> Web Site:
>>>>>> https://systemsconcept.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license.
>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or
>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>> send an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebxLf7z6FtdpNF5DkWgfBcYqgFAO0p25-G4Wjx%3D6tVdzog%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license.
>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or
>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>>>>> ---
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>>>>> an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROSNKcR6g32BDargfYyN40L2dUow5Xw%2BiVxCQEA%2BEH5%3DGA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joe Simpson
>>>> “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
>>>> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
>>>> depends on unreasonable people.”
>>>> George Bernard Shaw
>>>> Git Hub link:
>>>> https://github.com/jjs0sbw
>>>> Research Gate link:
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3
>>>> YouTube Channel
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw
>>>> Web Site:
>>>> https://systemsconcept.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license.
>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or
>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>>>> ---
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebzi6LnXJjZC16kgKhbzCUc_EaZNDiLOLF%3D3tx-Cz08-4g%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebzi6LnXJjZC16kgKhbzCUc_EaZNDiLOLF%3D3tx-Cz08-4g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license.
>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or
>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxRORg9E9Qm6fMiFk%2B526SCFNgDNsx5h%2BDQXSP_tfHYQSPdA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joe Simpson
>> “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
>> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
>> depends on unreasonable people.”
>> George Bernard Shaw
>> Git Hub link:
>> https://github.com/jjs0sbw
>> Research Gate link:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3
>> YouTube Channel
>> https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw
>> Web Site:
>> https://systemsconcept.org/
>>
>>
>> --
>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license.
>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or
>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "ontolog-forum" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebx2se11guBBUnqZtfDnHw_ARuM8p3KjYBcmmSBUo36H%3DA%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebx2se11guBBUnqZtfDnHw_ARuM8p3KjYBcmmSBUo36H%3DA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license.
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> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROTxWM4DfivM4vxuimohWuObVpefa14eS2AKZ7gB5Q6FYQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>


-- 
Joe Simpson
“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends
on unreasonable people.”
George Bernard Shaw
Git Hub link:
https://github.com/jjs0sbw
Research Gate link:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3
YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw
Web Site:
https://systemsconcept.org/
Received on Thursday, 3 October 2019 01:29:53 UTC

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