- From: Pascal Hitzler <phitzler@googlemail.com>
- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:14:47 -0500
- To: semantic-web@w3.org
+1 P. On 8/29/2019 12:00 AM, Axel Polleres wrote: > Last comment on that, I think I already mentioned and politely tried to > explain all I had to say contentwise… > > > I am perplexed what may be the cause that level of triviality, other > than some hidden agenda > > While I am sure you all had a great party, > > […] > > > Thank you, and apologies for the lack of diplomacy in expressing my > concerns > > +1, accusing the attendees and organisers of the seminar (which I think > was very fruitful, a good start for shaping future research, and > creating mutual understanding, which is what Dagstuhl seminars are all > about) of merely “having a great party”, “triviality” and “hidden > agenda” indeed shows a great lack of diplomacy. > > > > Do you see what I mean, the scope of the workshop > > based on the report, seemed limited, So many more questions beg to be > asked. > > Exactly! This is what such seminars are all about: raising and > pinpointing open questions… no one expects the community to find > solutions in a week. You may want to read > > https://www.dagstuhl.de/en/program/dagstuhl-seminars/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dagstuhl.de_en_program_dagstuhl-2Dseminars_&d=DwMFaQ&c=3buyMx9JlH1z22L_G5pM28wz_Ru6WjhVHwo-vpeS0Gk&r=TpLLn6m0QS9xFWETRsVn6EgCZn90oD7nTZw4u7dKTkE&m=AbVpSMKX_pUcLaMC9AXMPJuU6PeGkX21z_KvRqcIUsY&s=GavAiaGwej0kkp0MZWqn2zUaRdW7rFZxT7zT8D_axrs&e=> > > As a suggestion, you may rather want to focus on making constructive > suggestions to move forward, rather than misunderstanding the need for > discussions about open questions, gaps and lack of mutual understanding > as “superficiality”. > > Best regards, > Axel > > >> On 29.08.2019, at 02:21, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10@gmail.com >> <mailto:paoladimaio10@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Thank you all, >> >> and Valentina for finding the sentence in the report were limitations >> were addressed- >> seems a bit notional tho? >> >> Steffan S: thanks for the questions. Do you see what I mean, the >> scope of the workshop >> based on the report, seemed limited, So many more questions beg to be >> asked. >> >> Josh, as far as I am aware most KGs in use are embedded, and due to >> various reasons >> which were NOT even mentioned in the report, the reliability for the >> purpose of reasoning >> is uncertain. Yes, you are right >> /with unreliable or incomplete data, while an inevitable fact of life, >> is not necessarily a problem one should attempt to solve at the KG >> level. / >> true- but that is not what my problem is here >> see below for the summary my criticism >> /l;dr plenty of things appear to have been said at the seminar which >> are more actionable than much of the established theory around KR and >> SW./ >> I did not see much of that, maybe need to read it again >> >> In this thread, I asked about proceedings for this workshop, as it >> looked promising, but then forgot about it, as no pointers were >> provided to resources. During a recent search trying to answer certain >> questions the report came up, and I was surprised not to see even >> remotely the expected breadth of questions (ideally answers) relating >> to this important theme. >> >> Will - there have been a few threads where people ask what is the >> fuss about KGs >> and are they just hype, well I concluded that its just a name for >> triples/ntuples, and yes they >> are a form of KR, trendy and useful but perhaps overinflated a bit. >> Without further qualification KG do not satisfy the full scale of >> requirements for KRs, especially in large automated complex reasoners- >> >> So, Alex Valentina and all, if I am allowed, the main criticism for >> me remains": >> >> 1. very limited publicly accessible proceedings for a publicly funded >> workshop (the report, which as you say is just a short summary but no >> other more comprehensive resource is provided) >> >> 2. there is no novel contribution, the account of what KG are given >> in the report is limited (superficial) Not much new came out of this >> workshop, how can this be? >> How can the best scholars in this field completely fail even just to >> identify key open issues? >> >> 3. The workshop, based on the report, fails to raise the important >> questions pertaining to the challenges relating to KGs and does not >> even get near to pointing to work to be done >> >> 4. without capturing and addressing the limitations of KG as KR, and >> the work that needs to be done to overcome those limitations, the >> workshop/report falls short of its aims >> >> Now, given that KGs are an important and interesting topic, and given >> the quality and quantity and brilliance of the participants, from my >> perspective, the outcome of the workshop reads comparatively trivial >> >> I am perplexed what may be the cause that level of triviality, other >> than some hidden agenda >> >> While I am sure you all had a great party, from a scholarly >> perspective based on the report >> sounds like not the best use public resources, but agree that much >> research these days is like that- >> >> Thank you, and apologies for the lack of diplomacy in expressing my >> concerns >> >> PDM >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:08 AM Alexander Garcia Castro >> <alexgarciac@gmail.com <mailto:alexgarciac@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> KGraphs are an umbrella term that brings together more than one >> single tech a practical implementation/path that exemplifies an >> application of AI (semantics, linked data, ontolgies, etc). >> KGraphs offer more flexibility and scale better than pure ontology >> based solutions -IMHO. in my experience modeling on a KGraph makes >> it easier when dealing with real data in enterprise enviroments, >> also, KGraphs scale as needed. There are issues with KGraphs, I >> should better say with commercial KGraphs solutions and there is a >> lot of room for improvement; this is all true. We use Kgraphs for >> exploring scientific literature at a scale that would otherwise be >> very difficult to manage. We get from a KGraph pretty much the >> same in terms of query formulation, and some times more, as we >> would get from a SPARQL endpoint. the Kgraph allows us to add more >> data and remodel as needed considering only bussines constraints. >> >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:19 PM Joshua Shinavier <joshsh@uber.com >> <mailto:joshsh@uber.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Paola, >> >> OK; I look forward to a more detailed argument in your >> article. So far, I have only skimmed the paper you linked, but >> I can see that -- apart from the fact that it is a little >> dated and does not mention currently popular graph embedding >> techniques such as GraphSAGE (usual disclaimer: I am no expert >> in embeddings) -- the criticism applies at best to one >> relatively inessential and separable aspect of enterprise >> knowledge graphs. W.r.t. information extraction, I can tell >> you from experience that dealing with unreliable or incomplete >> data, while an inevitable fact of life, is not necessarily a >> problem one should attempt to solve at the KG level. At least >> 9 times out of 10, the problem is better addressed at the >> level of individual data sources, where the solutions are very >> domain-specific. >> >> "Knowledge graph" may be a marketing term, but IMO it >> represents a shift away from pure research and toward >> technologies that scale well and which serve real-world needs, >> as Steffen mentioned. This is a good thing; it means that KR >> is succeeding, even if it is doing so in unanticipated ways. >> It is important to acknowledge the rise of lightweight KR (if >> I may use that term) in the developer community via data >> models such as property graphs which dispense with formal >> semantics altogether, and I think it is also telling that many >> of the large-scale corporate knowledge graphs, at their core, >> are not based on either RDF or property graphs, but on >> special-purpose data models which have been designed in-house. >> I will tell you about ours (Uber's) in a paper currently in >> internal review. Last week, I had a chance to ask Xiao Ling >> (Apple) and Scott Meyer (LinkedIn) about theirs. For Siri's >> knowledge base, Apple is using an RDF-like data model >> (supporting "triples" with "qualifiers" that enable >> reification), but not RDF proper. For the Economic Graph, >> LinkedIn is using a Datalog-based data model which again is >> based on triples, but not on RDF or PG. This tells me that the >> standards built for knowledge representation on the Web are >> being used not so much for their associated formal properties, >> but as a means of data interchange -- a point that was made, >> and which really stood out to me in Paul Groth's trip report. >> >> tl;dr plenty of things appear to have been said at the seminar >> which are more actionable than much of the established theory >> around KR and SW. At the same time, I believe there is >> tendency now to look back at SW and earlier work and attempt >> to learn from it, adding more formality around ontologies, >> inference, and rules where it makes sense to do so. >> >> Josh >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:18 AM Paola Di Maio >> <paoladimaio10@gmail.com <mailto:paoladimaio10@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Joshua >> >> thanks for the opportunity to clarify and apologies for >> the brashness >> of my remarks >> >> I did not mean that they KGs are not a type of KR, which >> arguably they are >> >> but they do not satisfy KR adequacy criteria in many ways >> (I ll address that more extensively >> in an article) and come with limitations, an example >> linked below >> >> The lack of acknowledgment of such limitations is >> *startling *for me, and shows superficiality given that >> the workshop participants are leading researchers and >> colleagues, and include best of the sw researchers crop >> otherwise in many ways >> >> >> PDM >> >> this article explains some of the issues with KG, and >> especially using >> KGs as sole KR methods >> >> https://www.aclweb.org/anthology/D17-1184 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.aclweb.org_anthology_D17-2D1184&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=aNjZ2E21bTW1NHEQwPsqbJsQlCISkjiFHveUp3Qsp-U&s=TeWvt9PiUMH_e7fu6xP8vySKoOGki8BZFCsQWbp95SI&e=> >> >> Unfortunately, information extraction approaches for KG >> construction must overcome complex, unreliable, and >> incomplete data. Many machine learning methods have been >> proposed to address the challenge of cleaning and >> completing KGs. One popular class of methods learn >> embeddings that translate entities and relationships into >> a latent subspace, then use this latent representation to >> derive additional, unobserved facts and score existing >> facts (Bordes et al., 2013; Wang et al., 2014; Lin et al., >> 2015) >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 2:26 PM Joshua Shinavier >> <joshsh@uber.com <mailto:joshsh@uber.com>> wrote: >> >> Maybe I need to read some of the past threads for >> context, but this dismissive statement took me by >> surprise. In what way are KGs not KR? If that were a >> true, it would deeply affect my own outlook and >> messaging. I ought to at least try to understand your >> point of view. Are you referring to some very limited >> and traditional definition of KR? Insofar as an RDF >> statement is a claim about the world >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_rdf11-2Dconcepts_&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=aNjZ2E21bTW1NHEQwPsqbJsQlCISkjiFHveUp3Qsp-U&s=1ijuTw-9KTkWBdXnIoz2Hfg4v4uthQl0MBbr6mMEePs&e=>, >> the humblest RDF graph is a representation of >> knowledge. So... >> >> My $0.02 is that KG is a particular, typically simple >> and pragmatic form KR by a new name -- a pretty >> uncontroversial point of view, I would have thought. >> Not looking for a debate, just clarification. >> >> FWIW, I was not involved in the Dagstuhl event, but >> really appreciated the trip reports >> >> Josh >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:07 PM Paola Di Maio >> <paola.dimaio@gmail.com >> <mailto:paola.dimaio@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Juan and all >> >> I finally got hold of the report, courtesy of Alex P >> /aic.ai.wu.ac.at/~polleres/publications/bona-etal-DagstuhlReport18371.pdf >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__aic.ai.wu.ac.at_-7Epolleres_publications_bona-2Detal-2DDagstuhlReport18371.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=gaA1u5UYZsI_ZXB4pczTes7Z4Y5XsNf17VTvGW4NoQA&s=kzwa3xf1kft82oywOFTmr3190FCOd5k-5puzviUCFy8&e=> >> >> As a scholar in KR, I am concerned at the >> suggestion that KG are being proposed >> as KR, and at the superficiality of the content >> of this report, and I am aggravated to note the >> complete lack of acknowledgement of the >> limitations of this approach. >> >> Sounds like a good example of ineptitude, >> inadequacy and corruption heavily influencing >> academic research and the field of AI KR >> >> *two cents still allowed? >> >> PDM >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:41 AM Juan Sequeda >> <juanfederico@gmail.com >> <mailto:juanfederico@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Last week there was a Dagstuhl seminar on: >> Knowledge Graphs: New Directions for Knowledge >> Representation on the Semantic Web >> https://www.dagstuhl.de/en/program/calendar/semhp/?semnr=18371 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.dagstuhl.de_en_program_calendar_semhp_-3Fsemnr-3D18371&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=gaA1u5UYZsI_ZXB4pczTes7Z4Y5XsNf17VTvGW4NoQA&s=woJkjA7MzT9frcSHwr6o-5llrKuG9HDjHT-_mVaNkTQ&e=> >> >> A formal report will be coming out soon. For >> the mean time, some folks have written their >> own reports. I'm sure folks in this community >> would be interest: >> >> Eva Blomqvist: >> http://blog.liu.se/semanticweb/2018/09/15/dagstuhl-seminar-on-knowledge-graphs/ >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__blog.liu.se_semanticweb_2018_09_15_dagstuhl-2Dseminar-2Don-2Dknowledge-2Dgraphs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=gaA1u5UYZsI_ZXB4pczTes7Z4Y5XsNf17VTvGW4NoQA&s=G69b8OTXXr2Zy497b6s0DYeIAvJdAhuromY8ZC7V8AY&e=> >> Paul Groth: >> https://thinklinks.wordpress.com/2018/09/18/trip-report-dagstuhl-seminar-on-knowledge-graphs/ >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__thinklinks.wordpress.com_2018_09_18_trip-2Dreport-2Ddagstuhl-2Dseminar-2Don-2Dknowledge-2Dgraphs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=gaA1u5UYZsI_ZXB4pczTes7Z4Y5XsNf17VTvGW4NoQA&s=R8dpWgBXbjHVDqM2etP3BiTZPTPGcwsF-VmotEHrLUw&e=> >> Juan Sequeda: >> http://www.juansequeda.com/blog/2018/09/18/trip-report-on-knowledge-graph-dagstuhl-seminar/ >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.juansequeda.com_blog_2018_09_18_trip-2Dreport-2Don-2Dknowledge-2Dgraph-2Ddagstuhl-2Dseminar_&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=gaA1u5UYZsI_ZXB4pczTes7Z4Y5XsNf17VTvGW4NoQA&s=6A-VzuGsMu0_Ey3Mp-TSXjUM4-p3MK85sjcaJZEpXzo&e=> >> >> Cheers >> >> Juan >> >> -- >> Juan Sequeda, Ph.D >> www.juansequeda.com >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.juansequeda.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=r2dcLCtU9q6n0vrtnDw9vg&r=yHrezOOUvTAeD_KgsElyJw&m=gaA1u5UYZsI_ZXB4pczTes7Z4Y5XsNf17VTvGW4NoQA&s=S2dSQ7Xed01N86mt8fYTovscWTGH6x-VYNyYknz6abo&e=> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alexander Garcia >> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander_Garcia >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.researchgate.net_profile_Alexander-5FGarcia&d=DwMFaQ&c=3buyMx9JlH1z22L_G5pM28wz_Ru6WjhVHwo-vpeS0Gk&r=TpLLn6m0QS9xFWETRsVn6EgCZn90oD7nTZw4u7dKTkE&m=AbVpSMKX_pUcLaMC9AXMPJuU6PeGkX21z_KvRqcIUsY&s=4fypG4I2Y1avutA960DHkzCavKHyQnujzUF6sWsvKgI&e=> >> http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/75943.html >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.usefilm.com_photographer_75943.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=3buyMx9JlH1z22L_G5pM28wz_Ru6WjhVHwo-vpeS0Gk&r=TpLLn6m0QS9xFWETRsVn6EgCZn90oD7nTZw4u7dKTkE&m=AbVpSMKX_pUcLaMC9AXMPJuU6PeGkX21z_KvRqcIUsY&s=EEDxPUxA1nuBmLCJwIHZVDA6TrQBTEIKe5HaC36QUfk&e=> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/alexgarciac >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_alexgarciac&d=DwMFaQ&c=3buyMx9JlH1z22L_G5pM28wz_Ru6WjhVHwo-vpeS0Gk&r=TpLLn6m0QS9xFWETRsVn6EgCZn90oD7nTZw4u7dKTkE&m=AbVpSMKX_pUcLaMC9AXMPJuU6PeGkX21z_KvRqcIUsY&s=wfVyuEI5XvVcemU1CBYksKLB2VVXg7QqzqFlHKm1DLQ&e=> >> > -- Pascal Hitzler Lloyd T. Smith Creativity in Engineering Chair Kansas State University http://www.pascal-hitzler.de http://www.daselab.org http://www.semantic-web-journal.net/
Received on Thursday, 29 August 2019 13:15:13 UTC