- From: joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:57:44 -0700
- To: "Ontolog Forum @ GG" <ontolog-forum@googlegroups.com>
- Cc: W3C AIKR CG <public-aikr@w3.org>, semantic-web at W3C <semantic-web@w3c.org>, "mjs0sbw@gmail.com" <mjs0sbw@gmail.com>
- Message-ID: <CAPnyebzi6LnXJjZC16kgKhbzCUc_EaZNDiLOLF=3tx-Cz08-4g@mail.gmail.com>
Alex: Great question. "is it possible to say that formal mathematical models you are talking about are finite?" Some models (Formal Theories) may be finite others may be infinite. In this case, I assume you are using the terms "models" and "formal theory" interchangeably. To me the important ideas are associated with the model (theory) level of abstraction. Abstract mathematical theories (models) can address both finite (matrix theory) and infinite (number theory) abstract models. These abstract models (theories) may be formally applied to any specific domain of science. When these abstract models (theories) are applied to a specific domain of science, the concrete, substantive data and information that populates the models transform the theory from "abstract" to "concrete specific." General Systems Theory is viewed as occupying the space between abstract formal mathematical theories (models) and content specific theories (models) of specific scientific domains. I tend to view this area of inquiry along a graded range starting from pure abstraction and flowing to specific concrete examples. As Boulding wrote: "General Systems Theory is a name which has come into use to describe a level of theoretical model-building which lies somewhere between the highly generalized constructions of pure mathematics and the specific theories of the specialized disciplines. " Take care, be good to yourself and have fun, Joe On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:49 AM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com> wrote: > Joe, > > is it possible to say that formal mathematical models you are talking > about are finite? > > Alex > > вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 15:13, joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>: > >> Alex: >> >> *Figure 1, Scientific Method and Model Building *is basically a process >> flow chart. >> >> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun, >> >> Joe >> >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 1:25 AM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Joe, >>> >>> you are happy to work with systems and even in a general way. But who >>> will work with not systems? (joke) >>> >>> It's a pity Fig.1 in "System Concepts and Theories" does not have >>> rectangles for formal mathematical models, as it's better to keep theory >>> and models separately. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 03:58, joseph simpson <jjs0sbw@gmail.com>: >>> >>>> All: >>>> >>>> The statement: >>>> >>>> "Interdisciplinarity is fundamental to problem solving in most domains, >>>> and applied science and engineering are concerned primarily with problem >>>> solving, rather than purely theoretical formulations" >>>> >>>> Appears to relate directly to General Systems Theory. See: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323387658_A_General_Systems_Context_for_Structural_Modeling >>>> >>>> https://www.panarchy.org/boulding/systems.1956.html >>>> >>>> The proper alignment of natural language and formal language may be >>>> addressed in a range of view points. >>>> >>>> Some issues and ideas are outlined at: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324138184_System_Concepts_and_Theories >>>> >>>> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:42 AM Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you Alex >>>>> >>>>> variations/elaborations welcome (Vx) >>>>> >>>>> There is a problem with math KR tho - which has been discussed forever >>>>> I ll summarise it briefly hoping to put things to rest: >>>>> >>>>> Interdisciplinarity is fundamental to problem solving in most domains, >>>>> and applied science and engineering are concerned primarily with problem >>>>> solving, rather than purely theoretical formulations >>>>> >>>>> Interdisciplinarity means not everyone uses maths ( apparently even >>>>> mathematicians sometimes use different types of maths) Most domain experts >>>>> are not mathematicians >>>>> >>>>> Therefore, maths, like ml should also be translatable/mappable to to >>>>> plain natural language, even better to some diagrammatic notation or >>>>> logical language that reproduces the logical schema ideally, problems and >>>>> solutions should be represented in a multiplicity of ways >>>>> >>>>> This particular postulate - luckily I dont wake up early morning to >>>>> postulate very often - has been prompted but the need to fill a gap between >>>>> symbolic an subsymbolic KR as per the posts, and having a citable reference >>>>> I am sure it can be refined further >>>>> PDM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:29 PM Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Paola, >>>>>> >>>>>> I keep in mind a variation of your postulate: >>>>>> Any algorithm (including MLA) has math representation. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is all that we have been talking about since Leibniz: math >>>>>> knowledge representation:-) >>>>>> The problem is that computer programs and DBs are not mathematical structures >>>>>> but they work:-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> пн, 26 авг. 2019 г. в 05:27, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Since posting discussions about bridging the gap between symbolic >>>>>>> and subsymbolic, (see related posts) I have formulated a simple postulate, >>>>>>> and assigned a DOI so that anone following up on these discussions can cite >>>>>>> the contribution accordingly. I ll be happy to review the postulate with >>>>>>> comments and suggestions if any >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To support AI explainability, learnability,verifiability and >>>>>>> reproducibility, it is postulated that >>>>>>> for each MLA *machine learning algorithm, >>>>>>> there should correspond a natural language expression or other type >>>>>>> of symbolic knowledge representation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.9730268.v2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://figshare.com/articles/A_New_Postulate_for_Knowledge_Representation_in_AI/9730268 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source >>>>>>> license. >>>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or >>>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSrRtE0_8O3jtKKA%3D%2BOR%2BWUbFjCQi4Fxy_EzenO1CiYNjA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSrRtE0_8O3jtKKA%3D%2BOR%2BWUbFjCQi4Fxy_EzenO1CiYNjA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license. >>>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or >>>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROSc2ks%2BMsg-52eHktHVkQVRrKZCc8sXBSExXq5kv62ocQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROSc2ks%2BMsg-52eHktHVkQVRrKZCc8sXBSExXq5kv62ocQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license. >>>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or >>>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSovddhOskeG-uOWNYuLapDQ%3DcNM7u%3DDDNq6k3va3i5zjQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSovddhOskeG-uOWNYuLapDQ%3DcNM7u%3DDDNq6k3va3i5zjQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Joe Simpson >>>> “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people >>>> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, >>>> depends on unreasonable people.” >>>> George Bernard Shaw >>>> Git Hub link: >>>> https://github.com/jjs0sbw >>>> Research Gate link: >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3 >>>> YouTube Channel >>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw >>>> Web Site: >>>> https://systemsconcept.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license. >>>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or >>>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebyaNH-GhM6aQuP%3DB8TSkBaXhL-pREscgK2iiXp6HTTnWw%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebyaNH-GhM6aQuP%3DB8TSkBaXhL-pREscgK2iiXp6HTTnWw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license. >>> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or >>> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "ontolog-forum" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROR2uo4F7CEGT0GN8Pj-GN4PBk2yZZAUUrOrYJA_zLkTBw%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROR2uo4F7CEGT0GN8Pj-GN4PBk2yZZAUUrOrYJA_zLkTBw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> Joe Simpson >> “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people >> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, >> depends on unreasonable people.” >> George Bernard Shaw >> Git Hub link: >> https://github.com/jjs0sbw >> Research Gate link: >> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3 >> YouTube Channel >> https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw >> Web Site: >> https://systemsconcept.org/ >> >> >> -- >> All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license. >> For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or >> unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "ontolog-forum" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebxLf7z6FtdpNF5DkWgfBcYqgFAO0p25-G4Wjx%3D6tVdzog%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAPnyebxLf7z6FtdpNF5DkWgfBcYqgFAO0p25-G4Wjx%3D6tVdzog%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > All contributions to this forum are covered by an open-source license. > For information about the wiki, the license, and how to subscribe or > unsubscribe to the forum, see http://ontologforum.org/info/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ontolog-forum" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to ontolog-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROSNKcR6g32BDargfYyN40L2dUow5Xw%2BiVxCQEA%2BEH5%3DGA%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAFxxROSNKcR6g32BDargfYyN40L2dUow5Xw%2BiVxCQEA%2BEH5%3DGA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Joe Simpson “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.” George Bernard Shaw Git Hub link: https://github.com/jjs0sbw Research Gate link: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Simpson3 YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/jjs0sbw Web Site: https://systemsconcept.org/
Received on Tuesday, 27 August 2019 22:58:20 UTC