Re: Enquire - WWW - Semantic Desktop/PersonalDataWiki? do you agree?

Thanks for the reply.
No we didn't drink wine together. A virtual confusion. But my memory (no
knowledge base!) was that you were somewhere drinking wine. I was just
feeling thirsty.
I will look up the list for some of the companies I don't know. They often
have interesting blogs and so.
I understand what you are saying.
The business is of data aggregation and re-purposing.
But everyone (company in this arena) wants to be some sort of funnel.
They believe that there is money to be made here by having sufficient size.
They also believe that the task is difficult and that it requires expensive,
time consuming work.
There are other factors such as if the company has some sort of purchase
hold on customers' attention span.
It remains to be seen whether there is much room for many other players - I
suppose in some way there always will be because the means by which
information can be fanned out are pretty near infinite and there is always
some appeal in trying a new pattern.

Philosophically, not just pragmatically, you can see how different what I
find myself involved in (more LOD I suppose than Web 3) is to a 'personal'
web.
Here we are talking about an engine driving the data re-purposing, while the
personal web seems to promise immediate human agency and human monitoring.
The personal web appeals to me because I see large scale data hoses as
avenues of depersonalisation and manipulation - I would say, at my most
craggy, unavoidably so.
Can a personal web be any better. Bearing in mind that it will strongly
interact with those hoses, I am unsure.

On the pragmatic side of things LOD and Web 3 are difficult to achieve.
Along with technical non-understanding of Web 3, there are also formidable
technical difficulties as SPARQL is not performant compared to SQL (going by
the Berlin benchmarks).
This shop, where I am, is just going the straight forward ORM way.
Technically, I don't know that I see ETLs as useless, but I do think it is a
lot of work. I haven't reached a conclusion on the benefits of replacing
that with a 'lift' mechanism and model in RDF, although it seem viable there
are still difficulties, not least, performance. Of course one obstacle is in
my lack of understanding - SPARQL better now than a few days ago, but by no
means complete.

More generally, perhaps there is a reason for companies not to adopt more
semantic technologies in that they may not want users have that degree of
control over their online interaction with their service? A thought, anyway.
I don't think companies care about complexity necessarily, they just care
about perceived benefit.
Mapping one graph into another can be complex, but the tools seem to be
there.
The web is a publishing/communication medium.
TV has program makers, documentaries, drama and also advertisers. Each, in
their own way are interested in reaching a pact with the viewer which
involves some manipulation.
I am not an evangelist for web3 because I think we need to be able to take
into account the fiction of the web as well.
More than anything, larger players are interested in that fiction.

Adam



On 22 November 2010 10:43, Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann@gnowsis.com> wrote:

>  Hi Adam,
>
> we exchanged mails in 2008, you are/were at SERCO and our connection was
> Alexander Troussov. We probably drank wine at some conference (*SWC, ISWC,
> ESWC, ...)
>
> Enterprise Semantic Web use for data integration:
> This is not my business, but rather that of a growing number of companies
> like TobBraid, Open Link Software, Thalis, Semantic-web.at, punkt.at,
> www.systemone.at, etc...
>
> for example the semantic-web.at guys, with whom I recently drink beer
> frequently because we are in a project, would consult you on that  - but all
> the others also ;-)
>
>
> BUT this is not why I wrote. While everyone else goes Enterprise and
> LinkingOpenData, I ponder whether the "semantic personal information
> management" road as important as I see it. My theory is: we don't need ETL
> and all these conversions (which you, Adam, see as useless, too), if the
> authoring tools used daily (Microsoft Outlook, your webbrowser) would know
> about the Semantic Web and help you annotate correctly.
>
> And this "personal semantic information management" idea was historically
> (memex, enquire) the high goal out there... so I asked the Elders of the Web
> if this still holds.
>
> best
> Leo
>
>
> It was adasal who said at the right time 19.11.2010 12:57 the following
> words:
>
> Hi Leo,
> I seem to remember we had an exchange some time ago about Nepomuk/Semantic
> Desktop and the complexity of developing file parsers. I think you were
> having a glass of wine somewhere.
> I am off work at the moment as I have just fractured my arm cycling (damn
> it!).
> I am very interested in semantic technologies, although I have no use for a
> semantic desktop.
> I am interested in the benefits and trade offs in using a semantic approach
> to solve this problem:-
> There are arbitrary in coming streams of data, a few although some are
> sizeable data sets.
> Some change rapidly (within seconds) others remain stable over months.
> The formats are disparate, from XML (with or without schema) through CSV to
> SQL calls into a db.
> Our approach is to model the domain strongly, but at a sufficient level of
> abstraction such that calls to the merged data set are uniform for the
> client.
> Then, for each source we use some form of ETL - depending on our needs a
> lot of effort then has to go into each ETL.
> My investigation into semantic solutions include -
> 1. The automacisity of conversion from XML to RDF.
> 2. Storage of RDF.
> 3. Remodelling RDF to reflect the domain.
> 4. Speed of query triple store against conventional DB.
>
> 1. I know of only 1. tool that achieves this - Topbraid - and there is
> nothing wrong with this, but difficult to experiment as a skunk project
> since it requires a licence.
> I don't understand the degree of communality of approach in this area or
> how difficult it would be for me to produce my own 'lifter'. Ultimately
> desirable for control of the process.
> 2. This is related to 1. and 4. I'm thinking going the graph db way using
> gremlin and any backend. I haven't found other approaches yet that promise
> to tackle the issue of query response.
> 3. This should be the big gain. I am right off the extent of my
> understanding but am just about to experiment with this today. I have done
> 1. and, for sensible queries, need 3. I believe it should be very straight
> forward and should be the area in which this approach excels.
> 4. I have mentioned. This should be measured in a similar way to the Berlin
> SPARQL benchmark.
>
> My enquiry is in the direction of whether the very time consuming ETL phase
> plus ORM development phase can be side stepped.
> One of the issue is whether in coming data can be pre-processed more
> readily and timely in this way.
>
> I think this is a fair representation of some of the sorts of issues that
> companies might turn to semantic technologies for.
>
> What is important in all of this is that a company will take a proprietary
> interest in the data they meld, change and serve.
> I assume this is so with google and 'goodrelations'. They must see a
> benefit to themselves in offering this format of data.
>
> You have asked about the vision for a particular solution.
> Are you lacking what is essential at this stage:a very clearly articulated
> vision?
> I don't have that vision. I see it in terms of data gathering and
> enhancement along with a path to realise the benefits of that for the
> company that adopts this solution.
>
> There is, supposedly, a network effect and everyone wins now we have faxes.
> That would be more like you can't afford not to have one. Not an assessment
> of the actual benefit. And the semantic effort hasn't reached that point
> yet. Certainly not for the desktop.
> One needs a very clear idea of what problems one's solution tackles and
> what the market area is in which these problems are found.
> A semantic desktop seems to touch on other solution areas such as social
> networking, open (or closed?) solutions in that area as well as machine
> machine intelligent interaction.
> I don't know how, if or the extent to which you are tackling those areas.
> I do think there is a huge difference between enabling a user to create
> more data in the form of links to learning about a user a la facebook or
> google.
> I have to understand, what, where, is the value in the former?
>
> I may be very old fashioned, but I see a public sphere increasingly
> dominated by few large players principally interested in peoples' shopping
> habits.
> It requires little intelligence to choose between a Gucci bag or a pair of
> Church's shoes or something.
> It does require intelligence to do many of the professions, from solicitor
> to surveyor. To help those people solve problems for their clients.
> Is this the place for Gnowsis? If so how is it going to benefit in these
> areas?
>
> BTW, I run a mile from those who claim lack of vision, I see that as an
> appeal to the most primitive herd instinct. So we all end up in one herd or
> another - but so what!
>
> Best,
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 18 November 2010 10:25, Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann@gnowsis.com>wrote:
>
>> Right, actually I am not dishearted, It is  a nice Job to pitch Gnowsis.
>> Also, we have good feedback from customers who can now link emails to
>> other things.
>>
>> Historically there is a chain of memex/xanadu/enquire/web.
>> Part of the reason I wrote this mail is because I see a pattern here
>> leading to personal semantic web. I am curious  whether this pattern is also
>> seen by others.
>>
>> I don't plan to tell these things to investors, its rather an
>> understanding I need for myself. So ... calling for the elders.
>>
>> Cheers from the business angel day austria. :-)
>>
>> Leo Sauermann, Dr.
>> CEO and Founder
>>
>> mail: leo.sauermann@gnowsis.com
>> mobile: +43 6991 gnowsis
>> http://www.gnowsis.com
>>
>> helping people remember,
>>
>> so join our newsletter
>> http://www.gnowsis.com/about/content/newsletter
>>
>>  Am 18.11.2010 um 10:36 schrieb Nathan <nathan@webr3.org>:
>>
>> > Hi Leo!
>> >
>> > You sound disheartened, don't be :) Remember it's all about the link,
>> the web is only a web because it's got links, twitter rose to greatness on
>> the back of the typed link, you make one small link relation between you and
>> another person, and look what it enables. Some have let people both read and
>> write /and/ make links, like wikipedia and blogs, and look how that worked
>> out! Other companies have software which make links between words and pages,
>> like google, and look what that enables!
>> >
>> > And now you and Bernhard have brought the power of the link to peoples
>> personal information on their desktop, with software that can make the links
>> for you, look what that enables :)
>> >
>> > It's all right here:
>> >  http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/1211-whit-tbl/
>> >
>> > And the futures exciting:
>> >  http://videolectures.net/www09_bernerslee_rlty/
>> >
>> > Especially when it's mapped out:
>> >  http://www.w3.org/2010/roadmap/sem-seed.svg
>> >
>> > And when the path has been known for so long:
>> >  http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html
>> >
>> > when the way is known:
>> >  http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/ReadWriteLinkedData.html
>> >
>> > and look what it enables:
>> >  http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/CloudStorage.html
>> >
>> > It's great to see what you're doing Leo, and Bernhard, and even better
>> to know that you can see the web for what it is, enquire++.
>> >
>> > Keep up the good work :)
>> >
>> > Nathan
>> >
>> > Leo Sauermann wrote:
>> >> Dear Tim,
>> >> SWIG
>> >> My Current Task is somehow tricky:
>> >> I am pitching our company Gnowsis to investors. It makes an
>> Enquire-Like
>> >> Semantic Desktop, a personal semantic web. It seems investors
>> >> only understand anything on the level of "we do twitter for dogs" or
>> "it
>> >> sells crowdsourced clothes via mobile phones".
>> >> So Tim, as Elder of the Web, I turn to you for an expert opinion to
>> >> reassure we do a useful thing.
>> >> Here are the Statements I patch together from "weaving the web" etc.:
>> >> Enquire - linking everything bidirectionally is an
>> >> entire new way of writing.
>> >> I guess you also realized that the system changes the way you look at
>> >> things and your
>> >> thinking.
>> >> WWW - give everyone a tool (read/write) web that everyone
>> >> can publish information. The links are first unidirectional and untyped
>> >> and will be typed
>> >> "later", once the RDF riddle was solved in 1999.
>> >> SemanticDesktop/PersonalDataWikis/PersonalSemanticWeb - we finally give
>> >> the peoples the
>> >> Enquire that Tim already used in the distant and mysterious past.
>> >> The first distributable results are NEPOMUK-KDE, PesonalDataWikis,
>> >> Personal Data Lockers, and services around this idea of personal
>> >> semantic web services for personal information management.
>> >> The question:
>> >> Tim,
>> >> Is this THE idea?
>> >> Do you agree this is a sensible thing to do?
>> >> If yes, then my argumentation to investors and to myself is:
>> >> "TimBl basically inventend blogging, wikipedia, and twitter with the
>> >> idea of a read/write WWW, which it originally always included. You can
>> >> trust that guy to be clever. You can also be assured this was around
>> >> before, some ideas for millenia, some since Memex.
>> >> Now Gnowsis works to realize the proto-idea - Enquire. There must be
>> >> something going on here. Dear Investors, look at it, spend some time
>> >> understanding what happens here with technology and then invest."
>> >> Sometimes I feel like Frodo and together with Bernhard "Sam" Schandl we
>> >> go alone to Mount Doom ("Microsoft Outlook") to finally throw the Ring
>> >> of RDF into its center, to crack it open to the web. Then I see you
>> guys
>> >> over at the Minas Tirith of LinkedOpenData and data.gov and the
>> battles
>> >> Martin Hepp fights with GoodRelations and ... there is hope :-)
>> >> ok, looking for interesting answers
>> >> best
>> >> Leo Sauermann, Dr.
>> >> CEO and Founder
>> >> mail: leo.sauermann@gnowsis.com
>> >> mobile: +43 6991 gnowsis
>> >> http://www.gnowsis.com
>> >> helping people remember,
>> >> so join our newsletter
>> >> http://www.gnowsis.com/about/content/newsletter
>> >> ____________________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
> --
> Leo Sauermann, Dr.
> CEO and Founder
>
> mail: leo.sauermann@gnowsis.com
>
> mobile: +43 6991 gnowsis           http://www.gnowsis.com
>
> helping people remember,
>
> so join our newsletterhttp://www.gnowsis.com/about/content/newsletter
>
> ____________________________________________________
>
>