- From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:05:07 -0600
- To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <m2wqv46oe4.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes
[1]W3C
- DRAFT -
XML Processing Model WG
Meeting 224, 17 Jan 2013
[2]Agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
Attendees
Present
Norm, Mohamed, Jim, Alex, Vojtech, Henry
Regrets
None
Chair
Norm
Scribe
Norm
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Accept this agenda?
2. [6]Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
3. [7]Next meeting: 24 Jan 2013
4. [8]Change meeting time?
5. [9]Review of open action items
6. [10]Review progress on use cases/requirements
7. [11]Review of proposal to simplify parameters
8. [12]Support for document metadata?
9. [13]Any other business?
* [14]Summary of Action Items
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accept this agenda?
-> [15]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-agenda
Accepted.
Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
-> [16]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/11/01-minutes
Accepted.
Next meeting: 24 Jan 2013
No regrets
Change meeting time?
Jim: I'm finding Thursday challenging.
Norm: Time of day is to suit west coast USA and Europe.
... I don't like Monday's for meetings. I could do Tue, Wed, or,
reluctantly, Friday.
Jim: Maybe Cornelia would be able to make it if we moved the meeting time?
Alex: Henry has a complicated schedule too.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to send email polling for a different/better meeting
time. [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
Review of open action items
Norm: Alex, Henry, Norm, please report on your actions in email; suggest
which ones are overtaken by events.
<jfuller_> zip and unzip ... still draft
<jfuller_> [18]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/xproc-zip_unzip.html
Alex: What's the status on the Processing Model document?
Norm: The status is we're in Last Call and have comments from reviewers
that we haven't addressed.
Henry summarizes.
Alex: Does it make sense to try to bring this to closure as fast as
possible, even if other stuff is more interesting.
Norm: Yes, that's the case.
->
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jan/0000.html
Alex: I'll try to look at this after the call today.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to make XML Processor Profiles document an explicit
agenda item [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
Review progress on use cases/requirements
<jfuller_> [21]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/requirements-v2-jim.xml
Norm: Jim, I think you said you'd take a stab at it.
Jim: I worked on the zip/unzip step instead. I did do some work, but it's
not uploaded yet.
... The link above has notes from our f2f meeting. I'll try to get a
revised document online by Tuesday for next week.
Review of proposal to simplify parameters
Norm: I think we were talking about Vojtech's inheritence proposal.
Vojtech: The main idea was that maybe we could get rid of parameters
altogether by inventing some sort of inheritence mechanism.
... Because we don't want to lose the "magical" behavior that they inherit
from the pipeline.
... So options could possibly inherit from the calling context or maybe
the other way around.
... This option "propagates down" if it's used. From a nested scope, for
example.
<jfuller_> initial Norm link on fixing parameters -
[22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Sep/0014.html
Vojtech: It would be different to our current parameters but it would
allow for things like having an XSLT step that has an option called
parameters that's declared that it inherits from above. And by some kind
of naming convention you could actually still use this magic that you're
used to.
... The main idea would be to get rid of parameters concept alltogether
and replace it with options.
... And with maps, the "parameters" option could be a map and those
key/values could be inherited.
Alex: Presumably we'd still need the with-param kind of construct.
<jfuller_> last meeting minute param discussion -
[23]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/11/01-minutes.html#item04
Vojtech: That's a question. Or some way to extend or override the map
options.
Alex: I think you could make that work in a number of ways. With-param
could just be on the XSLT step.
... You could have a default parameter option and with-param could just
modify the map associated with the default parameter option. We could
support an option name.
Vojtech: We'd have to be really careful with with-param and with-option
and the order that we evaluate these things in. You could have with-option
dynamically building the map and with-param updating it.
... That whole inheritence mechanism is simpler but also introduces some
complexity, some side-effects that could be surprising if you don't really
know what you're doing.
Alex: Are you imagining the inheritence goes by the data-flow or by the
structure?
Vojtech: On the declare-option you'd say inherit=true and then when you
use the XSLT step, if the parameters option is not set, it would look in
the upper-contexts to find an option or variable with the same name and
use that value.
... You could also do it the other way around, on a pipeline you can
declare an option called parameters and inherit=true and it could
propogate down.
Norm: That's the same functionality, it's just a case of where you put the
label, right?
Vojtech: Well, yes, perhaps, but I think it's safer in some sense to
propogate down because the author has more control. The other way around,
using the steps could introduce surprises.
Alex: Minus a whole bunch of details, I like this idea. I never liked the
distinction between options and parameters. I didn't want to do it, but we
didn't have an alternative.
... So I like this approach, but we need to make sure we get the details
right.
Vojtech: In my idea, it's all based on the option names.
... Any option name could be inherited.
Alex: We need to decide if inheritence is a special thing that you turn
on, or it's the default and you have a way to turn it off.
Jim: I'd go for always inherited.
Vojtech: If it's always turned on, it could help with unbound optional
options.
Alex: I think I'm in favor of always inheriting too.
Norm: It only applies to steps inside compound steps so it's not too
dangerous, I guess.
Vojtech: If you really want something to be unbound, you should be able to
make it explicit.
Norm: But we don't have a syntax for that.
Alex: But we'd need one, I think.
... We need to look at the details.
Vojtech: I'm willing to dive a little deeper.
Norm: I think that would be great.
Henry: I'd like to see the same examples, if at all possible.
Vojtech: The same?
Henry: The same ones that Norm used in his proposal.
Vojtech: Ok.
Henry: I'm confident that either one of these or almost anything else
would be an improvement.
Support for document metadata?
Norm attempts to summarize.
Henry: We had this in the old markup pipeline engine, and the motivation
in that case was output type. You could allow internal XSLT steps to set
output type HTML and have that actually work at the end of the pipeline
because it got passed along with the metadata.
... The bad news is that you have to think through the semantics about
what kind of steps preserve this and what kind don't. It's not at all
obvious, for example, that an XSLT step preserves the metadata. It may not
make sense for the metadata to propagate.
... That may just be too hard a question to answer.
Alex: It may also be the case that the pipeline author wants control over
that.
Henry: But we don't want them to have to think about that if they don't
want to.
Alex: But like inheritence, it might be the case that there needs to be a
default and a way to specify the alternative.
... Output content type is a good example.
... I'm a little confused, because we had at least two proposals and then
the f2f, and I'm not sure where we've gotten to.
Norm attempts to explain again: we started with Vojtech's proposal for
binary which required passing along the MIME type and we generalized that
to document metadata.
Alex: Right, but my proposal didn't require that.
The chair expresses some confusion about the state of the binary
proposals.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to put review of the binary proposals on the agenda
for next week [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
Alex: Two things in my proposal are that XML is the only thing that flows
through the pipeline. The binary is identified by reference. Everything is
treated uniformly. It doesn't matter if the resource manager has a magic
URI or if you point off into the ether of the universe
Norm: Ok, my bad.
Alex: I'd like to see some good use cases for document metadata.
Norm: Fair enough.
Henry: The other one that I recall that we recall that we used this for is
preserving the character encoding. Which I can't remember if you can get
from the infoset or not.
Alex: There's a whole bunch of things that can be grouped into: how I got
the original data vs. parameters needed for serialization. There's a whole
bunch of metadata in there that's related. People might want to preserve
how they read the data in how they write it and metadata is a good way to
transport that form one place to another.
Henry: The reason we did this for character encoding is that we invented
an encoding that allowed us to preserve entity references.
Vojtech: I have a question: all the metadata values or attributes that you
mentioned look like magic metadata fields. But applications can also set
things, like timestamps and labels, yes?
Henry: Oh, absolutely, pipeline authors could come up with their own
metadata.
Jim: For non-XML it allows us to add metadata without changing the
documents. It's like implementing a state machine without having the state
in the documents.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to make sure document metadata stays on the agenda
[recorded in [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
Any other business?
Alex: Who's going to XML Prague
Jim: Everyone but Henry
<scribe> ACTION: Jim/WG to discuss XProcathon at next telcon [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
Adjourned.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Jim/WG to discuss XProcathon at next telcon [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to make sure document metadata stays on the agenda
[recorded in [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to make XML Processor Profiles document an explicit
agenda item [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to put review of the binary proposals on the agenda for
next week [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to send email polling for a different/better meeting
time. [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [32]scribe.perl version 1.137 ([33]CVS
log)
$Date: 2013-01-23 13:04:12 $
References
1. http://www.w3.org/
2. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-agenda
3. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-irc
4. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#agenda
5. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item01
6. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item02
7. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item03
8. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item04
9. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item05
10. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item06
11. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item07
12. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item08
13. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#item09
14. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-minutes#ActionSummary
15. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2013/01/17-agenda
16. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/11/01-minutes
17. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action01
18. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/xproc-zip_unzip.html
19. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jan/0000.html
20. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action02
21. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/requirements-v2-jim.xml
22. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Sep/0014.html
23. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/11/01-minutes.html#item04
24. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action03
25. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action04
26. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action05
27. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action05
28. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action04
29. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action02
30. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action03
31. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-xproc-minutes.html#action01
32. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
33. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Wednesday, 23 January 2013 13:05:41 UTC