- From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
- Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:54:34 -0400
- To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <m2bomno8lx.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes
[1]W3C
- DRAFT -
XML Processing Model WG
19 Apr 2012
[2]Agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
Attendees
Present
Vojtech, Alex, Henry, Norm, Murray
Regrets
Cornelia, Jim
Chair
Norm
Scribe
Norm
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Accept this agenda?
2. [6]Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
3. [7]Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012
4. [8]Review of open action items
5. [9]Review of requirements and use cases
6. [10]5.7 Extracting MathML
7. [11]5.12 A Simple Transformation Service
8. [12]5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld
9. [13]5.14 Interact with a Web Service
10. [14]5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS
11. [15]5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections
12. [16]5.17 An AJAX Server
13. [17]5.18 Dynamic XQuery
14. [18]5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File
15. [19]5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database
16. [20]5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent
transformations
17. [21]5.23 Response to XML-RPC request
18. [22]5.24 Database import/ingestion
19. [23]5.25 Metadata retrieval
20. [24]5.26 Non-XML doument production
21. [25]5.27 Integerate computational components
22. [26]5.28 DSDL
23. [27]5.29 Large document subtree iteration
24. [28]5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice
25. [29]5.32 No fallback for XQuery
26. [30]Any other business
* [31]Summary of Action Items
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accept this agenda?
-> [32]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda
Norm was going to add the zip questions, but in Jim's absence...
Accepted.
Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
-> [33]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/12-minutes
Accepted.
Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012
No regrets heard.
Review of open action items
<scribe> No progress reported on any actions #sadpanda
Review of requirements and use cases
->
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Apr/0024.html
Norm: There's been some email; we could go there or if Murray, there's
anything you're looking for...
Murray: I'd like to walk through the use cases and see which, if any, are
thought to be incomplete.
Norm: Murray, lead on!
5.7 Extracting MathML
Alex: This is the one I'm going to write about, but haven't yet.
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
5.12 A Simple Transformation Service
Alex: Depends on what we mean by persistence.
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12
[recorded in [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld
Alex: That could be interpreted many different ways
Vojtech: We can construct pipelines in the browser and submit them to the
server, you could do that on a handheld.
Norm: We could drop it.
Alex: It's underspecified.
Norm: We could satisfy the letter of this req. along the lines Vojtech
decided, but it'd take half a day and we could do other things with that
half day. Let's drop it.
Alex: I agree.
<scribe> ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
5.14 Interact with a Web Service
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections
Alex: Can we do this in XSLT?
Norm: I think you can.
Alex: I think we'd need to make the "collection" step explicit.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06]
5.17 An AJAX Server
Vojtech: I think 5.17 and 5.12 are the same.
<scribe> ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 [recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07]
5.18 Dynamic XQuery
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08]
5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File
Murray: We don't have a step to read non-XML.
Alex; You did some work in this area, yes?
Vojtech: Yes, but it's not version 1.0 compatible.
Alex: I think that's ok.
Vojtech: I can do this one, I can add a pointer to the paper
Norm: I think this is a clear requirement for XProc V.next
Alex: You could do this today with p:data and using XSLT to parse out the
data.
Norm: Yes, I think we should be able to do better in V.next
Murray: I think we should not write ths up then, it's a V.next requirement
<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to
Murray [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09]
5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database
Some discussion of various approaches, EMC & MarkLogic included.
Vojtech: There's nothing special about the pipelines, it's just behind the
scenes a connection to a database.
Alex: I thought about this with the MarkLogic steps. There's no reason why
they wouldn't work with eXist.
... It's pretty generic.
... Would there be value in trying to have a standard way to connect at
least to XML databases.
Norm: This sounds to me like a requirement for a new atomic step or set of
atomic steps.
... I worry about the details, but we can certainly put a stake in the
ground and look at designing atomic steps.
Murray: We should be able to design the steps, whether or not they'd be
satisfactory is an open question.
Henry: In the distant past with the Markup Engine, I ended up implementing
a very simple gateway to a relational database. It turned out that there
were a number of tasks we were exploring where you wanted to be able to
look up an atomic item in a relational database.
... I think that's worth exploring. There are a bunch of existence proofs,
whether there's a sweet spot is an open question.
5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent transformations
Murray: They seem like they'd be easy.
<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22
[recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10]
5.23 Response to XML-RPC request
Norm: I think this duplicates 5.12 and 5.17
Vojtech: Well, there's some conditionality in here. I can take a look.
<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 [recorded
in [45]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11]
5.24 Database import/ingestion
Norm: Maybe we should combine 5.20 and 5.24 into a more wholistic
requirement
5.25 Metadata retrieval
Discussion suggests that this is similar to 5.12, 5.17, etc.
Alex: Maybe we need a more general: pipeline performs query and formats
results.
5.26 Non-XML doument production
Murray: This is something we can do today.
Alex: Well, sortof.
... I wonder if we want to combine this with the non-XML input example.
5.27 Integerate computational components
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12]
5.28 DSDL
<alexmilowski> Veronika cries about DSDL
Norm: I think the salient issue here is whether we want to allow multiple
numbers of inputs and outputs
Alex: Do we have any other use case that has that feature requirmenet.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the
eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13]
Henry: I doubt that the complexity is worth the functionality, but we'll
see.
5.29 Large document subtree iteration
Alex: I can write this up. This is a streaming use case. Nothing prevents
p:viewport from doing this, but your implementation may not work that way.
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14]
Norm: Isn't 5.30 just an example of 5.29?
Alex: Yes.
5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice
Vojtech: There are a couple of different ways to interpret this.
Norm expresses concerns about the multiple output document.
Norm: I'm all for writing it up, but let's leave out multiple output
documents because it's a side issue
<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31
[recorded in [49]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15]
5.32 No fallback for XQuery
Vojtech: The pipeline will fail at runtime not compile time.
Norm: I can see how a long run that failed because of the last step would
be annoying.
Alex: But we have step-available, so this is solved.
Norm: I agree.
<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16]
Any other business
Murray: I only recently came across the mail that says the aims of this
effort is at low-hanging fruit.
... You can see from this document that I didn't know that.
... When we're talking about resource management, are we being entirely
opportunistic?
... Or is there room for something like a webdav.
Norm observes that we did the low-hanging fruit thing in order to be done
quickly.
Alex: Why can't we just add a requirmenet for webdav?
Norm: I'm all for adding the requirement
Alex: The deeper question of resource management is still an open issue I
think.
Norm: On the resource manager, I think we agreed to talk about it but not
put it in the critical path.
Alex: where are the use cases?
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases [recorded
in [51]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17]
Murray: The other thing is debugging.
... Who's the champion for debugging?
Norm observes that he'd do it if he had a coupleof years salary in the
bank
Alex: Can we engage a tool vendor to help in this area?
Murray: I gotta hope there's more to the story than log messages.
... I know we can do better. What I'm finding it hard to find in the spec
is all the ways I can get information.
Alex: I sort of divided the world into debugging vs. tracing a profiling.
Should we address this in the spec?
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week
[recorded in [52]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18]
Henry: I was surprised and impressed that the XQuery implementations got
as far as they did. Here's a use case: can you write an XProc processor in
XProc?
... I don't think so.
... Another way to put it is, is there an "evaluate this step" step?
Norm: Only in extensions.
Adjourned.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 [recorded in
[53]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 [recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 [recorded in
[55]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 [recorded in
[56]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML [recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 [recorded in
[58]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12
[recorded in [59]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 [recorded in
[60]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 [recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week
[recorded in [62]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases [recorded in
[63]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 [recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the
eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs [recorded in
[66]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31 [recorded
in [67]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 [recorded in
[68]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to Murray
[recorded in [69]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22
[recorded in [70]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10]
[End of minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [71]scribe.perl version 1.136 ([72]CVS
log)
$Date: 2012/04/19 18:53:24 $
References
1. http://www.w3.org/
2. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda
3. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-irc
4. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#agenda
5. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item01
6. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item02
7. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item03
8. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item04
9. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item05
10. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item06
11. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item07
12. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item08
13. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item09
14. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item10
15. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item11
16. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item12
17. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item13
18. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item14
19. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item15
20. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item16
21. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item17
22. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item18
23. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item19
24. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item20
25. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item21
26. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item22
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36. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02
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72. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Thursday, 19 April 2012 18:55:06 UTC