Re: xml-model and DTDs [was: Minutes for XML Core WG telcon of 2011 April 6]

John Cowan wrote:
> Grosso, Paul scripsit:
> 
>> Sure, at one level, a PI is a PI and therefore cannot affect the
>> validity of the document which contains it.
> 
> That's my only point.

Hi Paul and John,

I think that I understand to both direction in which you approach the
problem. However at this stage I would prefer as minimal change to spec
text as possible while addressing comments received during ISO process.
If there are some interop problem found in future we can always address
them by issuing another edition at W3C and amendment at ISO.

> That's why I spoke of validity rather than validation.  XML validity
> is a property of documents, whereas validation of XML is a much more
> flexible notion, which may or may not involve determining XML validity.

I can see difference, but I'm not sure that average Joe XML developer
will grasp this subtle difference.

>> * what should it mean if the document has both a doctype declaration
>> and an xml-model that points to a DTD.
> 
> It's up to the application what that means, but only the DOCTYPE
> declaration affects validity.

I think that we can add similar phrase to one which defines relation to
xsi:schemaLocation attributes.

"This specification does not define the interaction of xml-model
processing instructions with XML document type declaration
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#dt-doctype]. Applications supporting both
xml-model processing instructions and XML document type declaration may
provide means for specifying which information takes precedence."

>> * are DTDs associated with a document via an xml-model PI used for
>> creating or augmenting an information set from a given document?  Or,
>> are such DTDs simply used for validation rather than augmentation?
> 
> The application can do either validation or augmentation or both or
> neither.

+1

Although we probably need to clarify this somewhere, because this is
core of JP-0001 comment:

"If DTDs associated by the xml-model PI
contain entity declarations or
attribute default values, are they used for
creating or augmenting an
information set from a given document? Or,
are DTDs simply
used for validation rather than augmentation?

Clearly state whether associated DTDs
contribute to information sets"

I can answer this comment simply by saying that this is out-of-scope for
xml-model and that this is completely implementation dependent. The
question is whether we need to add some text to spec to make this more
clear. I think that there is no need for adding some new text as from
introduction text it should be clear that this is out-of-scope. I can
also try to contact original submitter (I think that it was either
directly Murata-san or that he can point me to the right person) and
check if he would be happy with such resolution.

    Jirka

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