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RE: self-signed

From: peter williams <home_pw@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:44:52 -0700
Message-ID: <SNT143-ds416B369C5049596CDBFC292900@phx.gbl>
To: "'Henry Story'" <henry.story@bblfish.net>
CC: <public-xg-webid@w3.org>
Forgive me, I will not be attending any Berlin meeting. And Im not writing
anything for the US one - since it will be auto-rejected based on the name
of the author, alone. My positions on user-centric identity are generally
not welcome, in those circles.

I'm happy with ftps (since it's an interesting two channel problem, and
doesn't have redirect or cookie issues). What matters to me is demonstrating
that we don't repeat history. If that means looking for theme #51, and then
#52 then I will do so (for what matters is shaping the general form of the
movement, for mass adoption that makes those who do muti-year platform
engineering believing that the movement has built in "sustainability"). If
we don't want suggestion #53, lets do what we said - and show ftps, as a non
http scheme.

-----Original Message-----
From: public-xg-webid-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xg-webid-request@w3.org]
On Behalf Of Henry Story
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 7:26 AM
To: peter williams
Cc: 'Mo McRoberts'; 'Kingsley Idehen'; public-xg-webid@w3.org
Subject: Re: self-signed

On 19 Apr 2011, at 15:54, peter williams wrote:

> Im just seeing filibuster, delay and a degree of specious argument, on 
> this issue

The people who are trying to implement tests, get things working, keep
things simple are filibustering? And the ones with mile long e-mails that
bring issues always outside the space are the ones doing the serious work?

a. the use of irregular or obstructive tactics by a memberof a legislative
assembly to prevent the adoption of ameasure generally favored or to force a
decision againstthe will of the majority.
b. an exceptionally long speech, as one lasting for a day or days, or a
series of such speeches to accomplish thispurpose.
c. a member of a legislature who makes such a speech.

That is why I suggest we stop this chatter, and start with real tests. We
have 50 issues on the table that you brought up. Now we are working bottom

> We discussed this topic in setting up the group - that we were about 
> more than http URIs.

Yes, I even wrote up how that works on

And you can get the philosophical details in the talk "Philosophy of the
Social Web"
which is available on my home page http://bblfish.net/

> We wanted to ensure we were not a linked data group (without denying 
> the legitimacy of that movement).

We are setting foundations for Linked Data, but we restricted ourselves on
purpose to start off with to identity, the part that does not require more
of linked data than dereferencing the WebID. Well with webfinger we get a
bit more linked data, as you have to do 2 dereferencings, one following the
other. But linked data and linked pages is the whole point of WebId of
course. If you think that is silly then you are in the wrong group.

> We wanted to ensure we did not
> fall into the political space that RDF typically falls into, whose 
> feedback properties ensure the failure of adoption. We did want to be 
> puritans, that is - "induced" to leave England (and even Holland), 
> because their literalness in positions of power caused 50 years of 
> constant war (to use a historical reference).

We are just trying to be Web friendly. For some that is being puritain
though, but not at the W3C.
I myself have no trouble with the semantic web, xml and other formats. The
current spec even is open to working with many other formats. It's just
worth us getting what we have going before we move on. 

> What I want to see is any non http URI adoption, to ensure that 
> multi-scheme'ness (per se) is being built into implementations.

We can do FTP immediately. ftp and ftps. perhaps scp would also work? Would
that help?

> If I had a magic wand, Id have people agree to one that requires use 
> of the "start SSL" technique, wherein such as an http tunnel is 
> upgraded once it exists to an https tunnel. This forces the us to have 
> considered the edge cases of SSL, material to this protocol.

Not so long ago a few people on the list asked us to get back to basics, as
we were getting lost in complex TLS magic. This is why I am trying to get us
to focus now on the simple implementation of the protocol we have now and
that we understand well.

I suggest that you write up a paper for the meeting in Berlin on one of your
favorite schemes. Try to make it short. Show the UML description, security
problems, and so on. An implementation that works would be even better. Then
we can review that, and see how to fit these ideas all together here.

But I would also suggest you try harder first to get WebID working as it is
now, with a test suite for an enpoint you can put up, and open source code
to go with it. Then we can better understand the issues you may have.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-xg-webid-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-xg-webid-request@w3.org]
> On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:12 AM
> To: Kingsley Idehen
> Cc: public-xg-webid@w3.org
> Subject: Re: self-signed
> On 19 Apr 2011, at 13:05, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>> On 4/19/11 3:36 AM, Mo McRoberts wrote:
>>> On 19 Apr 2011, at 01:43, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>>>> You're saying "WebID should support more than just http URIs"
>>>> It shouldn't be scheme specific in any shape or form.
>>> Okay, I have a practical problem with this as written: how do I 
>>> implement
> a WebID relying party which doesn't restrict itself to certain schemes?
>> Relying party needs to treat WebID as a protocol comprised of:
>> 1. URIs for Agent Identity (Names)
>> 2. Protocol for validating Agent Identity.
>> A URI is scheme agnostic. The fact that HTTP can be used as 
>> Name/Access
> mechanism doesn't imply this capability is unique to HTTP. You can 
> make other URIs resolve.
> Yes, but you still need to have that code which knows *how*.
> There is no double-standard in saying "I wish to implement a WebID 
> server which won't confuse people by only supporting half of the 
> schemes they expect. What do I need to support?", nor in providing the 
> answers to that question.
> --
> Mo McRoberts - Data Analyst - Digital Public Space, Zone 1.08, BBC 
> Scotland,
> 40 Pacific Quay, Glasgow G51 1DA, Room 7066, BBC Television Centre, 
> London
> W12 7RJ,
> 0141 422 6036 (Internal: 01-26036) - PGP key 0x663E2B4A
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Social Web Architect
Received on Tuesday, 19 April 2011 14:45:30 UTC

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