AW: (regrets and schema.org)

Hi Jeff,

The integration into HTML - is it a bug or a feature? For us as developers, it may be easier to deal with bulk "pure" RDF/XML (which has its own atrocities, though) or Ntriples. But when I want to convince people to provide semantic information, RDFa is invaluable as it allows to show the immediate value added by this information to a web page. It is easy to understand, easy to do (on a basic level, at least) and has the charme of a singele "source" representation from which other formats can be derived.

For most datasets, bulk download are valueable, too. The point you rise - could third party produce bulk downloads - is an interesting one. If the license allows re-use, it should be no legal problem. However, the question of keeping such bulk downloads up-to-date remains, and maybe a central service which crawls the data on a regualar basis such as Sindice could provide solutions for this.

Cheers, Joachim


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: public-xg-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xg-lld-request@w3.org] Im Auftrag von Young,Jeff (OR)
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Juni 2011 04:47
An: Neubert Joachim; William Waites; Emmanuelle Bermes
Cc: public-xg-lld
Betreff: RE: (regrets and schema.org) 

I think the main threat of schema.org to Library Linked Data is that Microdata/Microformats (including RDFa) are tightly coupled with HTML markup. Semantics embedded in HTML may suit the needs of major search engines since they are crawling HTML documents anyway, but these formats aren't really suitable for bulk delivery to other interested parties. In principle, it would be possible for someone to publish the extracted semantics in bulk form without the HTML fluff (e.g. as RDF/XML or N-Triples), but what would the rights implications of doing this be?

Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-xg-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xg-lld-
> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Neubert Joachim
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:56 AM
> To: William Waites; Emmanuelle Bermes
> Cc: public-xg-lld
> Subject: AW: (regrets and schema.org)
> 
> Hi William, hi Jeff,
> 
> Thanks for getting this up so fast!
> 
> A seperate section for Microdata, Microformats and RDFa is a very good
> thing, because lots of people will be concerned about making descisions
> on this. (Additionally, it is a good thing to drag RDFa out of the
> Content Management Systems section, since RDFa is not restricted to
> this field. The title and wording of the CMS section could be adapted
> accordingly.) As a further suggestion, the more vocabulary related
> Microdata/RDFa section should possibly precede the more development
> oriented about web application frameworks, cms and web services.
> 
> Re. the contents, my feeling is that the situation offers a lot of
> options, which are not yet evaluated. One which perhaps should be
> mentioned in the text is mixing schema.org and genuine RDF
> vocabularies. This should be quite easy in RDFa:
> 
> <div typeof="schema:ScholarlyArticle">
>   <h2 property="schema:headline dc:title">Estimating the Effect of
>   ...</h2>
>   <p property="bibo:abstract">This paper uses the Five-Factor Model
> ...</p>
>   <span property="bibo:handle"
> content="http://hdl.handle.net/10419/20518"/>
>   ...
> 
> This could be one of the possible ways to combine the expressiveness of
> library or other RDF vocabs with the schema.org classes and properties
> in order to optimize search engine visibility, which may be a main
> concern for many organizations.
> 
> Since currently no proven best practices for combing the approaches
> exist (and their developement will heavily depend on experience with
> the search engines crawling and ranking mechanisms - which will evolve
> over time, too), we should mark that as an open field - while making a
> strong point that schema.org and RDF(a) should in no way be treated as
> mutually exclusive.
> 
> Cheers, Joachim
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: public-xg-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xg-lld-request@w3.org]
> Im Auftrag von William Waites
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Juni 2011 00:11
> An: Emmanuelle Bermes
> Cc: public-xg-lld
> Betreff: (regrets and schema.org) Re: Agenda - June 16 2011 - LLD XG
> telecon - 1000 EDT
> 
> My apologies, I'll not be able to make the telecon tomorrow.
> 
> Jeff and I have corresponded a bit about schema.org, and I've added
> a short section to the Relevant Technologies section:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies#M
> icroformats.2C_Microdata_and_RDFa
> 
> The gist is:
> 
>   - microdata/schema.org is primarily intended for SEO
>   - schema.org's vocabulary is heavy in the tourism and commerce areas
>     and would need a lot of extension to do libraries
>   - there is some level of interoperability with schema.rdfs.org
>   - that interoperability only helps a little with interlinking
> different
>     library and other datasets
>   - it is possible to feed the search engines RDFa
>   - it is possible (modulo rumoured bugs) to feed the search engines
> both
>     RDFa and microdata from the same page
>   - if you can't do RDF and can't do RDFa then some schema.org is
> better
>     than nothing
> 
> Cheers,
> -w
> 
> * [2011-06-15 22:56:20 +0200] Emmanuelle Bermes <manue@figoblog.org>
> écrit:
> 
> ] Agenda - June 16 2011 - LLD XG telecon - 1000 EDT
> ]
> ] Time -
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons#Connection_info
> ]      http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-
> calendar.html#s_4061
> ]      0700 Seattle - 1000 New York - 1500 London - 1600 Paris - 2300
> Kuala Lumpur
> ]      2400 Tokyo - 0200 Sydney (next day)
> ]
> ] W3C Library Linked Data Incubator group:
> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/                   - home
> page
> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/              - wiki
> ]       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/      - group
> list
> ]       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/         -
> community list
> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons      -
> telecons
> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/RunningAgenda -
> "running agenda"
> ]
> ] Chair: Emmanuelle
> ] Scribe: ?
> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/ScribeDuty
> ]       http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/Scribing.html - how to
> ] Regrets:
> ]
> ]
> ======================================================================
> ] ADMIN
> ] -- Minutes of previous telecons
> ]   PROPOSED: To accept
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
> minutes.html
> ]
> ] -- Telecons - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons
> ]      2011-06-23 Antoine (regrets Tom)
> ]      2011-06-30 Emma (regrets Tom)
> ]      2011-07-07 Emma (regrets Tom)
> ]      2011-07-14 NO TELECON
> ]      2011-07-21 Antoine (regrets Emma)
> ]      2011-07-28 NO TELECON
> ]      2011-08-04 Tom
> ]      2011-08-11 NO TELECON
> ]      2011-08-18 Antoine (regrets Emma)
> ]      2011-08-25 final telecon (Tom)
> ]
> ] -- LOD-LAM summit (2011-06-02/03)
> ]
> ]      ACTION: Tom to send email to the LOD-LAM participants and create
> ] a final version of the presentation [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/26-lld-
> minutes.html#action01]
> ]
> ]
> ======================================================================
> ] FINAL REPORT
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportReviewerAssignment
> s
> ]
> ] ACTION: Antoine and Emmanuelle to talk about strategies for getting
> ] comments at next call [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
> minutes.html#action15]
> ] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
> lld/2011May/0051.html
> ] -- posting to a blog ?
> ] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jun/0017.html
> ]
> ] Tom's proposal for a review strategy:
> ] -- 2011-06-07: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
> lld/2011Jun/0002.html
> ] -- 2011-06-09: discussion during call and refinement:
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
> minutes.html
> ]
> ] ACTION: Co-chairs to draft message to the community about review
> ] between 16 June and 20 July - post before next call, on 16 June
> ] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-
> lld-minutes.html#action02]
> ]
> ] ACTION: Jeff and William to propose text on microdata and schema.org
> -
> ] where in the report it should be discussed [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
> minutes.html#action03]
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] EXECUTIVE SUMMARY (tbd)
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/ExecutiveSummary
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] "LIBRARY LINKED DATA": SCOPE OF THIS REPORT (Karen, Peter, Tom,
> Gordon, Jodi)
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits#.22Library_Linked_Da
> ta.22:_Scope_of_this_report
> ]
> ] ACTION: everyone to read
> ]
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits#.22Library_Linked_Da
> ta.22:_Scope_of_this_report
> ] and do lightweight review [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
> minutes.html#action04]
> ]
> ] ACTION: Jodi to send email about Scope statement [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
> minutes.html#action05]
> ] --DONE: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
> lld/2011May/0048.html
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] BENEFITS OF LINKED DATA (Ed, Emmanuelle, Ross)
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits
> ]
> ] ACTION: Karen to edit the Benefits section [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/26-lld-
> minutes.html#action06]
> ] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-
> lld/2011May/0080.html
> ]
> ] ACTION: Tom to ask Hideaki or Dickson to review
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
> minutes.html#action06]
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] AVAILABLE VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William)
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_S
> ection
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] RELEVANT TECHNOLOGIES (Jeff)
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies
> ]
> ] ACTION: Gordon to review Relevant Technologies [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/09-lld-
> minutes.html#action04]
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] IMPLEMENTATION CHALLENGES AND BARRIERS TO ADOPTION (Karen, Peter,
> Tom,
> ] Gordon, Jodi)
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page
> ]
> ] ACTION: Gordon and Karen to consider relation between problems and
> ] limitation section and the library resource wiki page. [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-
> minutes.html#action01]
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_
> data
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_Data_Resources
> ]
> ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ] RECOMMENDATIONS AND NEXT STEPS (Karen, Peter, Tom, Gordon, Jodi)
> ] --
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page
> ]
> ] ACTION: Jeff to review
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page
> ] for next week [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
> minutes.html#action12]
> ] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011May/0052.html
> ]
> ] ACTION: Tom to ask Dickson and Guenther if they could contribute
> ] curriculum issues to the Recommendations Section [recorded in
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-lld-
> minutes.html#action13]
> ]
> ]
> ======================================================================
> ] LIBRARY LINKED DATA: VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS - SEPARATE DELIVERABLE
> ] (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William)
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabulary_and_Dataset
> ]    Two Clouds: Metadata Element Sets and Datasets/Value Vocabularies
> ]
> ]
> ======================================================================
> ] USE CASES (Daniel) - SEPARATE DELIVERABLE
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport
> ]
> ] ACTION: Jodi to review
> ] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport for next week
> ] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/05/19-
> lld-minutes.html#action14]
> ]
> ]
> ======================================================================
> ] TRANSITION TO W3C COMMUNITY GROUP
> ] -- http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/04/coming_soon_w3c_community_grou.html
> ]    See also http://www.w3.org/2010/12/community/final
> ]
> ] 2011-05-12: Should inform W3C of intent to transition by 1 August for
> ] transition on 1 September.
> ]
> ]
> ======================================================================
> ] AOB
> ]
> 
> --
> William Waites                <mailto:ww@styx.org>
> http://river.styx.org/ww/        <sip:ww@styx.org>
> F4B3 39BF E775 CF42 0BAB  3DF0 BE40 A6DF B06F FD45
> 
>

Received on Friday, 17 June 2011 07:31:21 UTC