minutes: RWAB XG weekly call 2009-03-17


minutes from today's RWAB XG weekly teleconference can be found as
hypertext at:


as an IRC log at:


and as plain text following my signature...  as usual, please log
any errors, mis-attributions, clarifications, corrections and the
like by replying-to this announcement on-list

thanks, gregory.


                                 - DRAFT -

                            RWAB Weekly telecon

17 Mar 2009


  See also: IRC log


         wiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, unl, Steven, jackjansen


         Charlie Wiecha



    * Topics
        1. Preliminaries, Announcements, News
        2. Reports
        3. collaborative financial planning scenario demo
        4. SVG and Ubiquity
        5. Follow Up
    * Summary of Action Items

  were you able to obtain the opera XHTML+Voice plugin?

  <wiecha> was reading about it this morning, yes

  <scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

  <scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

Preliminaries, Announcements, News

  CW: Steven will be joining when meeting currently in finished; hoped
  to have jack here for discussion

  SP: going to ping jack to see if can join

  CW: have to leave 5 minutes early

  for reference:

  for reference:

  CW: Steven we need to discuss logistics for upcoming meetings

  SP: no info about format of panel - don't exactly know plans

  CW: having a dedicated mike gives you an advantage!

  SP: DAISY paying for travel expenses; a lot of ground to cover; DAISY
  become very involved in push to new XHTML2 draft

  CW: if want to speak with john and me, can set it up

  SP: don't anticipate any problems -- want to foster question and

  CW: as chair, need to present view of XG - that's why what we've been
  discussing lately
  ... AC meeting next week - monday future of the web (Xtechnologies
  versus HTML)
  ... mixing and matching technologies into Rich Web App programming
  ... details of prototype - SMIL, XForms, SVG, ODF - ubiquity platform
  way to get to clients

  JJ: trust CW and SP to represent views on the matter

  Uli: 2 key points - web is not defined by browser; distributed
  extensibility - clumsy in HTML, get for free in XHTML/XML core with
  namespaces -- basis for mixing dialects; HTML with special SVG and
  MathML handling not practical solution

  CW: RDFa clean example of extensibility

  GJR: ARIA, too - HTML WG wants to swallow and hard-wire ARIA or
  sub-set of ARIA - not good, needs to be namespace reference so PF/WAI
  can keep ARIA updated - ARIA 2 wish list already very large

  SP: attributes don't get removed from DOM; not sure about elements

  CW: using ubiquity using a lot of elements

  SP: messy extension mechanism - basis of browser wars: proprietary
  elements and interpretations
  ... ended up with tag soup and tag synonomic syndrome

  CW: Sam Ruby's response good; distributed accessibility as Uli

  <jackjansen> synonomic???


  CW: new implementations?

  JJ: been very busy with tool application paper and thesis

  CW: been implementing rich text control in ubiquity - allows inline
  editor to use markup to be captured in data section of XForms - best
  for boilerplate forms use

collaborative financial planning scenario demo


  cover emessage:

  CW: proposed list of features we could explore in the

  financial planning Backplane applicatio

  CW: UI aspects need to be discussed
  ... continue to be excited about rich set of visualizations, wiring
  techs together, SMIL and/or SCXML
  ... were do we want to jump in and start work

SVG and Ubiquity

  CW: mark birbeck keen on SVG for browser controls; been checking
  support for SVG - support in Safari, WebKit, and FF
  ... have earlier demos from emerging technologies group wired into
  U.S. tax form - have some javascript can steal from there to construct
  SVG element as result of data mining mode set - bind to data model and
  extract node sets from repeat, pass on to SVG generator (ubiquity
  custom control) to produce pie chart for data model

  GJR: it would be a very good test of SVG interacting with ARIA and the
  XHTML Access Module
  ... ARIA to augment DESC and TITLE in SVG and Access Module to provide
  tab navigation

  JJ: buzzwords for SMIL in ARIA -



  JJ: returning to question: scenario document - would like to take step
  back - if do this demo, what are the reasons we are doing it?
  ... a lot on integration side, but miss why doing in web app and not
  in C++ as stand-alone app
  ... in "requirements" there are some that apply to networks - should
  perhaps have section on why do with web app instead of stand-alone app

  CW: what are the backplane technologies is included
  ... illustrate patterns; nothing in scenario on network access per se
  ... could say all web technology good for apps

  GJR: foundation of standardization, ease of use, consistency

  JJ: platform independence in the web space - gives one access to
  tremendous resources; should spell out

  CW: should do where discuss data feeds

  JJ: at top say "joining a financial circle" - some social networking

  CW: OpenSocial discussions

  <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say working on ARIA and XHTML Role
  enabled OpenSocial implementation (virtual visually impaired computer
  users group)

  GJR: describes OpenSocail VICUG initiative

  CW: built xforms front end for shindig - simple back end to shindig -
  model relationships - use jump start for configuration of the app
  ... this could be filled in later

  GJR: if you build something from the inside out, you'll have no
  difficulty penetrating from the outside in

  CW: SVG navigation through pie chart - not accessible example

  GJR: 2 points: 1 is the SVG itself should be WCAG compliant, without
  question because it helps general usability as well as accessibility;
  the second important point is: strategies for repurposing data before
  it gets to SVG - in other words, mulitple means of compiling and
  rendering the data sets
  ... tools that SVG offers natively - DESC and TITLE;

  CW: roles attached to SVG element auto-generated

  GJR: i need to find out more about the auto-generation process so i
  can not only advise on SVG accessibility, but can work on a mechanism
  for repurposing the data set

  CW: will post to the email list - or, better, use the wiki
  ... will post script code for you to investigate

  GJR: that would be great

  CW: similar approach to mapping -- wrapping in ubiquity framework

  SP: not able to take on more work right now
  ... hoping to get his code, but can't
  ... in ubiquity, uses class to turn control into google map at
  latitude and longitude given; solved use case, but doesn't demonstrate
  power of mechanism to create class from scratch

  JJ: pointer, please?


  SP: class is "geolocation" - have range bound to object with 2 numbers
  (lat. and long.) but class="geolocation" on that and turns into google
  map; if drag, will move latitude and longitude
  ... was working last week

  Uli: doesn't work in Safari

  SP: demoed at mozilla conference using FireFox and Opera

  JJ: can't type into location field

  SP: slides load 2 javascript libraries - one for slides, the other for
  ... if type a "k" turns off key handling on slider

  CW: at top is source file for page
  ... changes directory with exchanges working on

  GJR: works ok as far as i can tell with speech

  CW: will follow up on picking up coding within RWAB - already checked
  into ubiquity repository and need to test on newer versions

  SP: had sidewinder browser - whole directory of great examples; when
  updated, erased google maps example; did google maps only in XForms;
  if have control that is lattitude and longitude, updated control with
  views of map using tiles as google maps does, but doesn't matter where
  tiles come from - selection of world map titles to choose from - very
  simple expression in a bind
  ... could select different mapping services with surprisingly little
  code - about 25k of xforms and extra stuff

  CW: different javascript for each mapping service?

  SP: mapping services deliver tiles as URLs indicating which tile you
  are using;
  ... using XBL was able to map onto entire mapping experience

  CW: 2 use cases: 1 is hiding deep script the other is binding on back
  end bindings and communicating them over the wire
  ... both valid
  ... SMIL?

  JJ: using SMIL as control language is area of interest

  GJR: would that be with SCXML?

  CW: SMIL alongside other objects/elements; SMIL as external controller
  versus running as internal application

  JJ: XHTML+SMIL (MS spec) - also work on timesheets - small constructs
  - what stylesheets do for style timesheets does for applying timing

  CW: SMIL block control rest of page or doing own thing internally

  JJ: need to determine event model; even as control language, don't see
  how many things there are that need control in financial app

  CW: wrestled with that; auto-log-out after inactivity, etc.
  ... wizard-style navigation - controlled sequence of tabs in a wizard

  JJ: yes

  CW: could you post about these things?

  JJ: XHTML+SMIL - http://www.w3.org/TR/XHTMLplusSMIL/
  ... timesheets [scribe will add link]
  ... relevance another way to allow SMIL timing to interact with XHTML
  or HTML documents

  CW: GJR mentioned opera's XHTML+Voice plugin - should investigate

Follow Up

  CW: will post script code to wiki; JJ will post on SMIL patterns

  JJ: won't be done by next week

  CW: should cancell next week because of AC meeting
  ... next RWAB XG call will be held in TWO weeks - 31 march 2009


  Integrating SMIL timing into XHTML (slide show)

  Timesheets: XML Timing Language -

  SMIL Timesheets 1.0 -

  web apps cdf paper delivered in helsinki in 2004 about Timesheets:

  FWIW, GJR reviewed timesheets for the PFWG - findings ultra-positive,
  as logged by then-chair al gilman:

  Timesheets - UA Capability Detection thread:


  s/scribe will add links/scribe's note: pertinent links for timesheets
  info is included at the tail end of the minutes

Summary of Action Items

  [End of minutes]


Received on Tuesday, 17 March 2009 16:17:33 UTC