minutes: RWAB XG call 2008-12-16

aloha!

minutes from today's RWAB XG weekly teleconference can be found
online as hypertext at:

http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html

as an IRC log at:

http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc

and as plain text, following my signature...  as usual, please 
log any corrections, clarifications, misattributions and the 
like by replying-to this announcement on-list...

expansions for the minutes is as follows:
 * JJ = Jack Jansen;
 * CW = Charlie Wiecha;
 * GJR = Gregory J. Rosmaita;

more info about the SVGIG discussed during the call is available 
at:

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/Main_Page

and

http://planetsvg.com

the "virtual weather station" proposal is archived at:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Dec/0006.html

and the OpenSocial proposal from Dan Brickley (danbri) on which he and i will 
be collaborating is archived at:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Feb/0004.html

thank you, gregory.

    _________________________________________________________________

                                 - DRAFT -

                               RWAB telecon

16 Dec 2008

Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Dec/0012.html

See also:
  * IRC log: http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc

Attendees

  Present
         CharlieWiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, jackjansen

  Regrets
         John_Boyer

  Chair
         CharlieWiecha

  Scribe
         Gregory_Rosmaita

Contents

    * Topics
        1. Where Do We Want to/Need to Go?
        2. Target Audience
    * Summary of Action Items
    _________________________________________________________________

Where Do We Want to/Need to Go?

  CW: participation thin; worried that not high enough priority; may be
  don't have a precise enough deliverable
  ... spirit of outline i circulated -- had hoped would do more
  technical/application work
  ... how to get prototyping ideas to "product" either real or
  roadmapped on wiki; who are we targetting and how to go after them

Target Audience

  JJ: note also shows an issue i've encountered myself; on 1 level
  identified some areas and technologies that are out there and allow
  people to create RWAB; if was to create something tomorrow, would be
  lost -- haven't created list of what to do or roadmap "if you want to
  produce a RWA look here and here and here"
  ... disconnected bag of technologies now -- need to integrate -- here
  is what there is, here is how use it; then decide, document or
  deliverable (library) that they can relate to and use

  CW: who is it we are trying to sell that to -- the implementor? the
  strategist? what level of descriptino -- conceptual or nuts-and-bolts

  JJ: something Pablo reminded me is that XGs can spawn working groups;
  aiming for people to attract ot become members of WG

  CW: never shared that feeling; my PoV is trying to connect dots;
  cross-cutting technologies; W3C lacks cross-cutting vision
  ... still some nuts-and-bolts oriented, but not particularly a WG

  JJ: don't see clearcut WG coming out of this XG

  CW: who is at center of what we are doing?

  JJ: on other hand, if at end of XG life what is left is a document
  that shows people on various levels, where they should look for W3C
  and related standard techs that will help solve problems, fill needs

  CW: would be quite useful;
  ... people outside industry don't know about a lot of the existing
  technologies; roadmap to assembly has yet to be drawn
  ... HTML container DTD; XForms controller; SVG - graphics engine; SMIL
  - timing mechanism; XML Events
  ... currently each individual has to connect the dots for herself
  ... no one has assembled everything and ordered it and put lipstick on
  it

  JJ: you are looking at it from managerial PoV
  ... haven't had to create -- you are lead of team and have clear
  vision of what silverlight can do -- how to use it with scripting
  ... roughly follow CW's outline
  ... also think that document on more component level would also be
  good to have
  ... joe-web-designer plays with XHTML and CSS and XForms and now needs
  to tie together; 90% chance now that will use javascript to do what
  needed, when there are technologies more declaratively designed, that
  should be used

  CW: set of patterns that are available to people in a repository that
  they can use
  ... a cookbook -- here is a set of read-made examples

  JJ: examples before february?

  CW: no; just trying to nail down our specific audience
  ... reason having conversation is because concerned that if i write
  the document, it will be a tree falling in the woods

  JJ: cookbook may be aiming too high -- would be happy if describe each
  technology in a nutshell to at least encourage people to look at
  technology; documents such as stevenP's "XHTML for HTML Authors" --
  great model; gives enough of feeling of technology to encourage it's
  use

  CW: could be fleshed out
  ... use steveP's note as pattern
  ... timing, SVG - canvas from API PoV, but SVG promotion important

  JJ: both SVG and XForms have disadvantage that they are small
  technology that does one thing; big specs but tackling limited set of
  questions; we are tackling a huge questio, should show when 5 ways of
  doing something appropriate using standards/W3C based techs
  ... now that we are talking, though wondering if should do a demo app?

  CW: was going to say that -- best way to lead authors to info they
  need

  GJR: danbri and i are going to ARIA enable OpenSocial to make a
  virtual visually impaired computer users group - could incorporate
  other techs

  CW: can't really pin them down; big picture not compelling

  JJ: in a way, people are right; each technology in its own field is
  nice, but conflicts with other techs; we should emphasize integration
  ... over past year become convinced that have something nice for
  integration, but how to communicate to outside world that helps real
  people solve real issues

  CW: integration is the core part; not just "piling on" specs, but
  mixing technologies; not widget, but single document with data,
  controller, SVG -- blend of technologies

  JJ: demo app -- aiming for complex demo apps because in real life will
  be using these things in complex situatns, but shouldn't we be shaping
  world what a rich web app IS
  ... show in such a way that integration present and professional can
  realize integration issues herre -- if do in flash, will become
  inaccessible

  CW: break down integration problem into series of rich fragments
  ... comes back to patterns idea; illustrate aspects of integration
  ... as JJ said, how to add timing to group of controls
  ... how to add validation to a group of data items

  JJ: where we shine is integration; should aim for something - single
  app that shows everything, even if just a toy app

  CW: built out of progressive exposure; break down into components

  JJ: depends on app

  CW: how one explains what it is itself - look at from data PoV,
  control PoV, timing integration

  JJ: somebody came up with app

  GJR: virtual weather station
  ... could work with professor who proposed it; use student's work

  CW: harvest out of them best practice
  ... separate or collaborate

  GJR: that would be up to you as chair
  ... can contact prof and ascertain what stage is at what doing

  <scribe> ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather
  station [recorded in
  http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]

  CW: if do this, any chairs of existing WGs at W3C pay attention to it?
  any AJAX authors pay attention to it?
  ... IG may come out of this work to perform evangelizing

  GJR: plus one
  ... explains SVGIG aggregator site

  CW: shoot for jump-starting content with IG proposal - what would
  attract people
  ... example app needs to be motivating

  JJ: why not implement server side -- what is advantage of serving as
  app

  GJR: if i were to implement in real life, i would definitely handle
  things server side

  JJ: data aggregating is anonymous data - GPS position - if need data
  from source a and data from source b but don't want the one to know
  i'm using the other...
  ... reason to do web app is combining data from 2 sources: information
  on bank account should be secure, info about another private source (a
  store) don't want bank to harvest purchasing habits and don't want
  store to know banking bussiness would do

  as web app

  CW: downside: not much input flavor
  ... not capturing input, or serving rich data
  ... leave app choice to later; if trying to populate IG as outcome of
  XG, what would be tools IG should maintain

  GJR: aggregation site like planetsvg.com

  CW: motivate people to participate, have to have something to spark
  their interest
  ... would really like to build something

  JJ: thinking of apps, should we think of a game?
  ... simple games have a bit of secrecy -- info don't want to reveal to
  peers

  GJR: like JJ's idea

  CW: input as well as output
  ... could start with "game" broadly as generalization
  ... multiple server side pieces, multiple client side pieces,
  distributed devices

  JJ: virtual world games logic done centrally, rendering done client
  side; want ability to "hide" what you are doing locally
  ... direct feedback equal better user experience

  CW: lot of potential

  GJR: very good idea - timing of actions in game

  CW: what would be good game to model

  JJ: strong point of RWA as opposed to Flash and on the other hand
  organization wide server-side, client-side; strong points of solution?
  can we think of game that highlights strong points?

  CW: game requirements: countdown timer, ability to move around, ARIA
  live regions, mash-up

  GJR: talks about danbri and openSocial - will post more to list

  CW: richness of open social?
  ... think about OpenSocial, games

  GJR: OpenSocial probably a longer term project

  CW: discuss potential of games on list

  JJ: upcoming meetings?

  CW: this will be last of year

  JJ: can do next week, but not week after

  CW: take poll on list - if not, then sixth

  ADJOURN

Summary of Action Items

  [NEW] ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather
  station [recorded in
  http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]

  [End of minutes]
    _________________________________________________________________